AIM: blades5/2/09 7:17 PM
Ephesos: ...alright, let's do this shit.
Ephesos: Yes.
Terrors Martyr: Yay.
Ephesos: 'Cause this is easier than keeping three or four chat windows open and relaying the contents back and forth. 
Niemand: Hold on; got to finish up a post at SV. . .
Terrors Martyr: My suggestion is obvious: Let's screw over JV.
Nikki: How?
Niemand: Why? He can be useful to us.
Terrors Martyr: By pirating BoA all over the place.
Terrors Martyr: In a way that can't be tracked back to us.
Niemand: That also won't work, because so few people have heard of it that they won't seek it out to pirate. 
Terrors Martyr: I mean, pirate it by burning it onto CDs and leaving them places.
Ephesos: People won't just install software from strange CDs found lying around.
Nikki: And as I said to E, would you install and run a piece of software you found on a CD...
Ephesos: (sniped )
Terrors Martyr: Haha, I hope so. 
Niemand: Okay then, we'll just have to get drastic: We hack peoples' computers and install BoA for them.
Terrors Martyr: HAHAHAHAHAHA
Terrors Martyr: And force them through scenarios step-by-step. It'll be like every scenario is made by me.
Ephesos: Yeah, pretty much.
Ephesos: The way I see it, we're not advertising our scenarios here.
Ephesos: We're advertising the community, which is why we can't just hand them everything for free.
Ephesos: If the goal was just to feed our egos, then yes, we would just start shoving hacked CDs down people's throats.
Ephesos: TM, snarky comment about piracy and egos?
Terrors Martyr: Hunh? Oh yeah, sodomize their faces.
Ephesos: 'k, moving on.
Nikki: Haha, you two make a cute couple.
Niemand: I think that I like the idea of, among other things, suggesting that Jeff add a scenario or two before the registration barrier.
Terrors Martyr: Suggesting that JV do anything? Sorry, am I hallucinating?
Nikki: How easy would that be, Niemand?
Nikki: Changing the code to allow more scenarios, not getting JV to do something.
Nikki: (In theory)
Niemand: I can't be all that bad. Right now the game just stops you if you try to play something that isn't VoDT.
Ephesos: I've always wondered, is it just hard-coded in that VoDT is the only playable scenario unregistered?
Ephesos: ...oh.
Ephesos: Right.
Terrors Martyr: And this doesn't constitute piracy?
Niemand: He just need to make that be 'something that isn't VoDT or X', where X is the added scenario.
Terrors Martyr: How would we distribute it, save through JV?
Nikki: We would go through JV
Niemand: I was referring to getting JV to do the above, BTW.
Niemand: We could also do it given a few hours with a trace program and a hex editor, but we won't.
Terrors Martyr: Is it illegal to tamper with JV's software?
Niemand: It may surprise you to learn that the answer is: yes.
Ephesos: Pretty sure it is. Otherwise we would've stopped yelling at Ishad Nah months ago.
Niemand: (In a rather fuzzy and ill defined EULA sort of way.)
Ephesos: Unless we're NASA, right? 
Nikki: You guess should've just banz0red him.
Nikki: You guys*
Niemand: And there will never be a time when Ishad Nha doesn't need yelling at.
Ephesos: True.
Ephesos: Goddamn it Ackrovan, write something that makes sense for once.
Niemand: So, supposing we were to recommend a scenario for official inclusion in the demo, which would it be?
Niemand: I'm thinking that something held in reasonably high regard, but not too unusual might be best.
Terrors Martyr: ...E:R? 
Ephesos: Down, TM's ego. Down!
Niemand: TM, while your works hold very high critical acclaim, a think we might scare people away with them.
Terrors Martyr: 
Ephesos: "Oh my god, I'm falling through the air? Do all scenarios make you free-fall? Who the fuck is that? Why is he here? Why does he look like a sprite from Fire Emblem?"
Ephesos: "I just lost. Wait, what?"
Niemand: Yeah. That.
Niemand: Maybe something a bit more restrained, like MoC?
Ephesos: MoC is rather similar to a JV scenario, just with time travel.
Terrors Martyr: True.
Niemand: So is it not representative enough? (It also may be for too high a level.)
Terrors Martyr: ...Mad Ambition, guys? 
Ephesos: We probably need something that fits in right after VoDT for level curve...
Ephesos: MoC would be great if we could get ASR and ZKR included too.
Terrors Martyr: Honestly, EoR and SoG don't look too bad.
Ephesos: Things in the 10-25 range:
Ephesos: A Visit to the Madhouse
Terrors Martyr: http://geocities.com/terrorsmartyr/BladesofAvernum/scenario_levels.html
Terrors Martyr: This may help us.
Ephesos: Embers
Ephesos: Emerald Mountain
Niemand: Ah, thanks TM.
Ephesos: HIM
Ephesos: Mad Ambition
Ephesos: And Shades, by my count.
Ephesos: (that list could use updating, I had forgotten about it)
Terrors Martyr: Outpost Valley...
Terrors Martyr: Shades of Grey...
Niemand: Kill Them Dead?
Ephesos: KTD might be too... offbeat.
Ephesos: It's fun, but probably not the best introduction.
Niemand: Thus the question mark. . . yeah.
Terrors Martyr: River and Leaf seems a poor choice for many reasons, but it's possible.
Ephesos: True.
Ephesos: I would veto it, personally, for two reasons:
Nikki: Those colours are hurting my eyes.
Ephesos: 1) Ishad Nah made it.
Ephesos: 2) It looks absolutely terrible.
Terrors Martyr: 3) It's for BoE?
Niemand: It hovers barely at the point of being playable, from what I've seen.
Niemand: Yes, the porting job is rather poor.
Terrors Martyr: I mean, I think I'm the only person who tried to port a scenario.
Ephesos: Who really, actually tried, yes.
Ephesos: Ishad Nah "ported" River and Leaf.
Terrors Martyr: ...sorry, I meant other than him.
Terrors Martyr: My point is, it's a piece of shit process that gives you jack nothing.
Niemand: Another thing to keep in mind is that we may get useful new material out of the current contests.
Terrors Martyr: ...24 hour scenarios?
Niemand: Not so much that contest as the other (if anyone every competes in it), but it's _possible_. 
Ephesos: 24 hour scenarios might be a good idea.
Ephesos: I mean, as much as I hate to admit it, the Tales are a good singleton scenario.
Terrors Martyr: Are we including one scenario, or 6-7?
Ephesos: I'd say we shoot for one or two.
Terrors Martyr: And the Tales are very out-of-the-ordinary.
Niemand: I think it would best to aim for 1-2.
Terrors Martyr: (And they were multiple 24 hour scenarios scrunched into one.)
Niemand: And singleton 'party-mashers' (to use Jemand's term) to boot.
Niemand: Regrettably, it seems that the list of good candidates is dominated by work from the three of us currently discussing.
Ephesos: *sigh*, yeah.
Terrors Martyr: Well, no duh.
Terrors Martyr: When you put me into the room, that's, like, 25% of Blades already.
Niemand: Perhaps, in order to appear objective, we should bring the matter up for others to finalize the decision (not that it need to be done right away, anyway.)
Nikki: We'd need to have some sort of vote, agreed.
Ephesos: Agreed.
Niemand: But at least it looks like we have some good material to choose from? I think so at least.
Ephesos: Again, agreed.
Terrors Martyr: You know, I should probably make my scenario level chart by listing scenarios by their mean recommended levels.
Niemand: Could you at least sort the list by that metric?
Ephesos: This would probably be helpful.
Terrors Martyr: I'd have to give a shit. 
Ephesos: Okay, does someone want to post a summary in the thread, or shall I?
Terrors Martyr: I think this is a decent starting point, but I don't think it'll net us any good results.
Niemand: So what else might help?
Terrors Martyr: Well, I already gave you my ideas...
Terrors Martyr: I mean, my thought is, we'll have some attrition due to people being overly-cautious...
Terrors Martyr: But some people will be too reckless to give a shit, and others will scan the CD first or something.
Terrors Martyr: Also, if we contact small gaming-related student orgs/businesses, we would be able to circumvent the problem.
Terrors Martyr: But this is a good starting point, I suppose.
Terrors Martyr: (And if any of these orgs ask us if we have the right to distribute the material, we can just lie. )
Terrors Martyr: Of course, that sounds dangerous to us, so I'm against it.
Terrors Martyr: Also, we could potentially use public computers to distribute the software to gaming communities--there would be no way to trace it back to us.
Ephesos: Again, I'm against it.
Ephesos: As long as Jeff is expanding his internet presence, why don't we just try and ride in the wake of that for a while.
Terrors Martyr: (What's JV doing?)
Ephesos: He's started a developer blog, and succumbed to the marketing potential that is Facebook.
Niemand: Started a weblog, which has gotten some non-negligable attention.
Terrors Martyr: Define "non-negligible".
Terrors Martyr: He's been accumulating tens of comments, which is far more traffic than any of _our_ websites has.
I'm not sure "more traffic than BoA fansites" counts as "non-negligible".
Terrors Martyr: I mean, our goal is to reach new audiences.
Terrors Martyr: Who would access his FB who wasn't already interested in SW?
Terrors Martyr: Same goes for his blog.
Niemand: That is true, and was my first concern when this topic came up.
Terrors Martyr: So guys.
Ephesos: Okay, the Facebook page is probably irrelevant, I'll admit that.
Terrors Martyr: I don't give a shit if we push for BoA to be packaged with better scenarios. That's a good plan unto itself.
Terrors Martyr: But do we really think it'll be *enough*?
Ephesos: I think for now, it's something.
Niemand: We also want to get design tools bundled with the game as well.
Ephesos: Amen. Yes.
Ephesos: Forgot about that.
Terrors Martyr: Why not start big and petition for JV to allow all prefab scenarios to be played before registration?
Ephesos: That's another option, definitely.
Ephesos: But I'm doubtful that he'd do anything with that.
Terrors Martyr: Rule of bargaining: Start big, work your way down.
Ephesos: True, true.
Terrors Martyr: And anyway, let's look at this from his position.
Niemand: Considering there are now around fifteen times that many 3rd party scenarios, it doesn't seem unreasonable.
Terrors Martyr: What does he have to lose? People might play more of his stuff without paying--is his ego really sensitive enough to consider that "theft"?
Terrors Martyr: On the other hand, he'd make more MONEY.
Terrors Martyr: And it's JV.
Terrors Martyr: Heck, we could even offer to recode BoA for him--not sure if he trusts us that far, but we should be cordial about it.
Ephesos: Yeah.
Ephesos: That pretty much brings us to the point of emailing Jeff. And I think TM should not be the one to do it.
Terrors Martyr: And heck, I'm sure he'd LOVE to make a new advertising snippet about it.
Terrors Martyr: (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA0
Terrors Martyr: HAHAHAHAHAHAH
Terrors Martyr: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Terrors Martyr: NO.
Terrors Martyr: I've stopped submitting my scenarios to their website a long time ago.
Niemand: I'm not sure we're ready yet, are we?
Terrors Martyr: We should probably draft the email in advance and give ourselves a few days to workshop over it.
Niemand: Also as I mentioned on SV, we must do something about the official scenario tables.
Terrors Martyr: We could just ask JV to abolish the "official" ones and link straight to CSR.
Ephesos: That would be enough.
Terrors Martyr: And then we could rework CSR from the ground up.
Niemand: Ideally, the CSR should be subsumed by the Forge.
Terrors Martyr: True. I want to set up a protocol for "importing" reviews.
Terrors Martyr: The protocol would ideally involve multiple raters.
Terrors Martyr: Unbiased raters.
Terrors Martyr: Double-blind raters, in fact.
Ephesos: We need Aran in here, basically.
Terrors Martyr: And we can add more until we have a decent reliability score.
Niemand: How do you double-blind ratings? The designer doesn't know what he's designing, and the rater doesn't know what he's rating?
Terrors Martyr: No.
Niemand: I somehow didn't think so. . .
Terrors Martyr: Let's say we accept some indirect measures of scenario quality: Plot, combat, aesthetics, etc.
Terrors Martyr: The protocol would involve people reading reviews of scenarios and determining how the text in the review translates into numerical scores.
Terrors Martyr: These people would have to be blind to the scenario, as well as the reviewers.
Niemand: Huh. Clever.
Terrors Martyr: And some reviews would be invalid for translation.
Terrors Martyr: For instance, "It sucks. 6.0" fails to cross over into the forge.
Terrors Martyr: And people will be given the right to claim ownership over a review if they actually give a shit later. 
Terrors Martyr: We'd need some people who are outside of the community to do it for us, but we can find some folks on the forums for us.
Terrors Martyr: And just in case they're too erratic, we can run reliability analyses to see if the reliability is increased with any people removed from the analysis.
Terrors Martyr: Of course, this is totally unrelated to marketing BoA, but it seems like a decent idea for reworking the CSR.
Terrors Martyr: (And, most obviously, people who wrote their own reviews will be more than able to translate them on their own.)
Ephesos: Yeah, mention that in the CSR thread... I'm sure Slarty wouldn't mind.
Terrors Martyr: Any questions/criticisms?
Terrors Martyr: (Slarty isn't blind to the reviews; he can't participate.)
Niemand: I think the basic idea is well worth pursuing.
Ephesos: Yep.
Nikki: *nods*
Ephesos: So should we make sure the Forge is up and running entirely before we draft an email to Jeff?
Terrors Martyr: Yes.
Terrors Martyr: I'd rather show JV that we're serious about this.
Terrors Martyr: Having two sound proposals in one email will have a greater impact.
Terrors Martyr: And it'll show him that he can trust us not to neglect his product like he did.
Niemand: Indeed.
Ephesos: Agreed.
Ephesos: So obviously, we need to hunt down Aran and force him to finish polishing the Blades Forge.
Terrors Martyr: Of course, I don't think it'll be enough, but it's a start.
Nikki: In the mean time, we can get to work translating the reviews as per TM's idea.
Niemand: He's making progress, what with building version 2.
Terrors Martyr: Well, we can't...
Nikki: You know what I mean, pedant.
Terrors Martyr: We should figure out how we want new CSR to look first.
Terrors Martyr: Like, what are our criteria? Are we going to describe what a 1.0 for a given aspect means, versus what a 10.0 means?
Terrors Martyr: Once we have the criteria set, then we can ask SW goons to use them for us.
Ephesos: ...yeah. This would be a great time for Lenar to be around.
Terrors Martyr: What does he do?
Niemand: His approach to ratings is unusually structured.
Terrors Martyr: Psh, we can do that ourselves.
Ephesos: Still, more voices = more better.
Nikki: Especially since I'm distracted to the point of saying nothing.
Ephesos: As long as you're working on a scenario, it's cool.
Terrors Martyr: So.
Terrors Martyr: Our plan:
Terrors Martyr: 1. Draft an email to JV.
Terrors Martyr: 2. Determine criteria for CSR.
Terrors Martyr: 3. Pester the living shit out of our code-savant pegging boy.
Ephesos: Pretty much, yeah.
Niemand: Sounds like a good start. I also want to look at polishing up the utilities I manage.
Ephesos: A general call to arms for everyone to polish up scenarios where they can would also be nice.
Niemand: (I'm wondering if we could build sparkle into the Mac apps. That would make them work far better when distributed by JV.)
Ephesos: Sparkle?
Niemand: Auto updating library.
Ephesos: Pardon my general ignorance, but what is that?
Ephesos: Yay timing.
Ephesos: What does that gain us?
Niemand: That way we could give JV version 1.n to distribute, but when people install it, it could update itself to the newest version.
Nikki: That'd be awesome.
Nikki: So, instead of having to redownload for every minor update, it just does it automatically?
Nikki: NIce.
Terrors Martyr: Awesome.
Terrors Martyr: Kelandon has joined this chat.
How much of this would JV trust us to do to his program?
Terrors Martyr: I mean, I suppose we should offer anyway, but still.
Niemand: I have no idea where to get or how to use a Windows equivalent, but it would be step in the right direction.
Niemand: I personally doubt that Jeff will let us do anything to the game itself, yet.
Ephesos: Yeah, that seems like a longshot.
Ephesos: (Hi Kel.)
Kelandon: Catch me up here.
Niemand: (Plus, I'm not ready yet.)
Nikki: We don't need him to let us. We just need him to change it.
Ephesos: Brb, sandwich. Someone else do the recap.
Terrors Martyr: ...brief synopsis:
Terrors Martyr: We want to publicize BoA.
Terrors Martyr: We want JV to open up all 4 prefabs before the registration barrier.
Terrors Martyr: I want us to illegally mass-distribute it, but most people are against this. 
Kelandon: Opening up all four JV scenarios seems like a bad idea.
Terrors Martyr: We also want to deal with the "official" scenario review tables by encouraging JV to abolish them and translating the scores into the Forge.
Terrors Martyr: ...why?
Kelandon: I mean, over-long demos discourage sales.
Kelandon: People become satisfied with the amount they've played.
Kelandon: Or lose interest halfway through.
Terrors Martyr: Even with the promise of lots of unique gameplay afterward?
Nikki: Basically, we get JV to lift the registration cap - let us play more scenarios before having to buy the game. We also try and get him to scrap his tables, and link to a new CSR, with a new rubric, which we'd have to discuss and settle on amongst ourselves. All old reviews would be copied over by a third-party, which eliminates any bias. The new CSR would most likely be at the Blades Forge, if Aran was down with that.
Nikki: Or, as TM put it:
Nikki: JanusFace2Face (02:36:32): Our plan:
JanusFace2Face (02:36:43): 1. Draft an email to JV.
JanusFace2Face (02:36:50): 2. Determine criteria for CSR.
JanusFace2Face (02:37:07): 3. Pester the living shit out of our code-savant pegging boy.
Ephesos: Yeah, not necessarily all four prefab scenarios.
Kelandon: One or two more scenarios might be a good idea. Especially user-made ones.
Ephesos: We started throwing out ideas for scenarios to include alongside VoDT (maybe one or two).
Ephesos: But then we realized that most of the suitable ones had been authored by one of us. 
Terrors Martyr: (Although that's obvious, since I'm in the room, and constitute basically a quarter of BoA.)
Kelandon: I was about to say.
Kelandon: We've got me, Eph, TM here.
Terrors Martyr: And Nikki, I guess.
Ephesos: Yeah.
Nikki: Meh, my work isnt relevant here, on the whole.
Ephesos: Shuddup, yes it is.
Niemand: I'm still here!
Kelandon: Anyway, I don't see what a new CSR format has to do with anything.
Ephesos: It would be part of a larger push to make Blades suck less, and it would help our pitch to JV.
Nikki: The idea was it would show Vogel we're serious about his game, and would be a measure...
Nikki: sniped again, dammit.
Niemand: Plus we need it anyway.
Ephesos: At the very least, we need stuff imported to the Forge. Or, we'd like it to happen.
Ephesos: But as Aran isn't online, we haven't been able to pester him about our wishlist.
Kelandon: I have for a long time thought that CSR makes Blades suck more, not less.
Ephesos: I'd agree there.
Nikki: But that's the current CSR. The actual idea of having reviews isn't bad.
Terrors Martyr: Haha, maybe when you're in the core community.
Ephesos: If you ask me, the simplest thing we can do is to move reviews to the Forge, abolish the numeric scores, and make people write helpful reviews.
Ephesos: (insert laughter here)
Terrors Martyr: (Plus, we need to communicate to JV to get him to simply link over to the Forge for accurate reviews anyway.)
Ephesos: (Yes.)
Kelandon: He has some links to something or other already.
Kelandon: *wanders off to check*
Nikki: It's to the CSR, isn't it?
Terrors Martyr: He does.
Terrors Martyr: Although since we plan on sacking the CSR... plus, it's a small link next to an "official" score, which is even more misleading than the CSR itself.
Terrors Martyr: (Nevermind that--when is the last time the official tables were updated?)
Kelandon: Does anybody submit to them any more?
Nikki: Who even submits to SW anymore?
Nikki: Damn sniping! 
Niemand: I never have.
Terrors Martyr: I stopped out of protest.
Nikki: I did with TV, and it didn't make the tables.
Terrors Martyr: Anyway, I'm going to set up the New CSR topic.
Ephesos: I haven't in a while.
Kelandon: So at present the official tables page has a link to the Blades Forge and to Tyran's database.
Ephesos: Yeah, Adrift was the last time.
Nikki: The problem I always had with SW's blades page is that it's about three or four clicks in.
Ephesos: Yes, that's a bit of a put-off.
Nikki: He needs a link on the main page, even if it's just at the bottom in the "quick links" bit
Niemand: Likewise the scenario editor page is too deeply buried.
Ephesos: (brushes off Scorp being Scorp...)
Kelandon: Yeah, it's pretty hard to find anything Blades related from Spidweb's front page.
Kelandon: It'd be nice to be featured a bit more prominently.
Kelandon: Enraged Slith has joined this chat.
I always use my own links list as the gateway.
Ephesos: *explosions*
Nikki: Hey Slithy.
Enraged Slith: Hi.
Nikki: Oh, and hey Kel, since I forgot before. 
Ephesos: I honestly almost never load the SW main page anymore.
Enraged Slith: So what's going on?
Nikki: JanusFace2Face (02:44:42): ...brief synopsis:
JanusFace2Face (02:44:47): We want to publicize BoA.
JanusFace2Face (02:45:02): We want JV to open up all 4 prefabs before the registration barrier.
Nikki: JanusFace2Face (02:45:51): We also want to deal with the "official" scenario review tables by encouraging JV to abolish them and translating the scores into the Forge.
Kelandon: I have then done my duty by disagreeing with everything that TM says. 
Ephesos: If not all 4 prefabs, then one or two of our scenarios that works well around VoDT.
Nikki: Yeah, what Ephesos said.
Enraged Slith: The problem with opening all four prefabs is that people might be inclined to just leave it at that.
Enraged Slith: Though I can see how that might attract more people.
Kelandon: So one or two small user-made scenarios, then.
Ephesos: It seems like we're ready to abandon opening all 4 prefabs.
Ephesos: All in favor?
Kelandon: Aye.
Terrors Martyr: Aye.
Nikki: Aye
Ephesos: Aye.
Niemand: Aye
Ephesos: Alright, measure jettisoned.
Ephesos: So, instead we want to try and get one or two user-made scenarios in there?
Niemand: I'd recommend it.
Enraged Slith: We need a scenario that's high quality, respectable, and highlights the fun technical side of design
Nikki: ideally two, and two that are different to each other.
Ephesos: So RoR is out. 
Kelandon: I was about to say that pretty much eliminates NH. 
Ephesos: ...er, RosesofR. 
Enraged Slith: I was hoping Stareye would finish his latest thing
Enraged Slith: since it looks like it would be up just about everyone's alley
Terrors Martyr: RoR = something other than Roses?
Ephesos: Yeah, that's been in progress for a while.
Ephesos: Ritual of Registration... unfortunate acronym overlap (UAO).
Enraged Slith: and he's familiar with Jeff
Nikki: Did we mention A Perfect Forest earlier?
Nikki: What level is that?
Enraged Slith: 1-10
Ephesos: We didn't, but it would fit nicely.
Enraged Slith: The only problem with APF is that it's a little bare, compared to what we have, and that it's frustrating for new players
Niemand: didn't Jeff accidentally include it once before?
Enraged Slith: yes
Nikki: Yes.
Terrors Martyr: Hahaha.
Terrors Martyr: We were thinking of including a scenario that would fit after VotDT, but that may not be wise.
Ephesos: So... A Perfect Forest, Outpost Valley, Shades of Gray, Mad Ambition, HIM, Emerald Mountain, Embers, A Visit to the madhouse, Magus of Cattalon, and Kill Them Dead were mentioned already.
Enraged Slith: I hope you weren't serious about my scenario
Ephesos: We shifted it to the 'unlikely' bin for being too offbeat.
Enraged Slith: Out of those options, my pick would probably be Embers
Ephesos: (Though it is fun.  )
Enraged Slith: Embers would be a good pick.
but I really think it needs to be a scenario that shows something more unique from the community side.
Niemand: HIM. . . is also a little too peculiar, I think.
Enraged Slith: as good of a scenario as it is
Ephesos: Okay, so discard HIM and KTD.
Terrors Martyr: MA seems far too offbeat.
Kelandon: I'm in favor of an Eph scenario based on looks alone.
Enraged Slith: not to mention difficult
Ephesos: That leaves APF, Outpost Valley, Shades, Mad Ambition, Emerald Mountain, A Visit to the Madhouse, Embers, and MoC.
Ephesos: Alright, MA's out too.
Niemand: I like that MoC is creative without being really strange, but others have said it may not be different enough from the JV scenarios.
Terrors Martyr: Shades of Grey.
Enraged Slith: Drop the high level scenarios, since it will likely have to follow VoTD
Terrors Martyr: (We need one or two scenarios that can be played after VotDT--MoC doesn't count, unless Smoo wants to adjust the difficulty.)
Ephesos: Shades is 20-25.
Kelandon: Oh hey, we might get something cool out of the 24-hour contest in this regard.
Ephesos: VoDT spits you out around 10.
Enraged Slith: I really like the idea of Embers
Niemand: AVM, is honestly only ~15 minutes to play at most. It was 24 hour scenario, remember.
Enraged Slith: actually
Terrors Martyr: 24 hour scenarios seem inappropriately short.
Ephesos: Kel, we raised that point earlier, and yes, they might work.
Ephesos: The question is can we get one of suitable quality.
Niemand: Does it look like anything will actually come out of Dahak's contest?
Ephesos: We kinda wanted to stay away from singleton-forcing scenarios, after all.
Nikki: Realistically, no. 
Enraged Slith: I was working on something, but I didn't know how to flesh it out
Ephesos: (I have something in the works for it still!)
Enraged Slith: plus it had almost nothing to do with any of those screens
Terrors Martyr: Poor Dahak.
Enraged Slith: it was going to be amazing though 
Terrors Martyr: His contest is going worse than Buttered Bread's.
Kelandon: It is in the tradition of the Pearl Contest.
Terrors Martyr: Hahahahahahaha.
Niemand: I really think Laz should have waited before starting a competing contest, also, but that's a tangential complaint.
Enraged Slith: Now, I think the demo should also be expanded to include a designing tutorial scenario.
Terrors Martyr: ...I nominate Settlers.
Ephesos: So, Settlers.
Enraged Slith: since, one of the main problems with newcomers seems to be the difficulty of designing
Niemand: An intruging idea.
Ephesos: Settlers wins.
Terrors Martyr: Of course, I will have to remove the drinking/drug references in the design process.
Ephesos: ...yes.
Ephesos: I was about to say, it's been a while since I looked at it.
Niemand: Yeah, hat would be sort of required.
Enraged Slith: I was going to suggest something more technical and, as a consequence, much less fun
Nikki: Damn it, sniped again.
Ephesos: Nikki, do try to keep up now. 
Nikki: It's not my fault. I'm trying to multi-task, and failing.
Ephesos: Understandable.
Niemand: BoR! That'll get their feet wet with scripting!
Terrors Martyr: (We're all multitasking. This is the internet.)
Terrors Martyr: (What's BoR?)
Enraged Slith: turn off the porn everyone
Nikki: Blades of Rogue
Terrors Martyr: Maybe ES is right.
Ephesos: About turning off the porn?
Terrors Martyr: We could make a stupidly simple scenario that explains its design process.
Enraged Slith: Without going too far off topic, I would have liked Blades of Rogue much more if the automap hadn't been bugged.
Ephesos: Lazarus has joined this chat.
That's beyond anyone's control, though.
Niemand: @ES: I wish I could fix that.
Enraged Slith: It could even progress by having the user complete scripts
Terrors Martyr: http://forum.nethergate.net/index.php?showtopic=1504
Lazarus: The answer man is here, do not fear
Nikki: Oh great.
Terrors Martyr: Anyway, we could just edit Settlers to tell people what's going on.
Ephesos: Alright, I need to step away from the computer for a while... brain fatigue = fail. I'll save the transcript thus far, and I might be back later.
Lazarus: Oh, TM is already here. I presume you pitched your scheme, so I can't claim it as mine? 
Kelandon: Uh, who is the newcomer?
Ephesos: Someone please post a summary somewhere. 
Niemand: I like the idea of a 'some assembly required' scenario.
Ephesos: 'tis Lazarus.
Ephesos: (Bye folks... yay progress!)
Enraged Slith: cya
Terrors Martyr: Explain, Niemand.
Lazarus: Bye already
Terrors Martyr: Ephesos has left this chat.
...no, I think I see what you mean.
Terrors Martyr: I like it.
Niemand: I thought that was what ES was referring to with "It could even progress by having the user complete scripts"
Enraged Slith: I have a quick question: can Mac users read Window made scripts?
Kelandon: Yes.
Terrors Martyr: ...they're text files.
Niemand: Of course.
Enraged Slith: because when I open one of yours, I have to manually put in all the new lines
Niemand: The worst that can happen is the line endings get screwed up.
Enraged Slith: I'm using notepad though, so maybe that's the problem
Nikki: Yeah, it's annoying, isn't it?
Niemand: Yeah, a good editor is a must.
Enraged Slith: I was just wondering, because it would present a problem to this new idea
Terrors Martyr: We could just format the text files so that doesn't happen.
Enraged Slith: so some standardization would probably be nice
Niemand: dintiradan has joined this chat.
We'd just make sure of the encoding of all the files before relasing it.
dintiradan: Hello all.
dintiradan: What'd I miss?
Kelandon: (Be back eventually.)
Niemand: Hey, Dinti.
Niemand: We think we want to get JV to include some player made scenarios in BoA for the demo.
Niemand: TM wants to reform the CSR.
Nikki: We want to publicize BoA. We want JV to open some more scenarios before the registration barrier. We also want to deal with the "official" scenario review tables by encouraging JV to abolish them and translating the scores into the Forge.
dintiradan: Yeah, wasn't there a BoE collection released like that?
Nikki: Yes, but we mean before the actual registration, Dinti.
Enraged Slith: Jeff really should advertise the fact that this community does exist
dintiradan: Ah, gotcha.
Niemand: We're currently considering publishing a scenario that a new designer can asseble from pices to learn how it works.
Niemand: *assemble
Terrors Martyr: Just me? You mean the rest of you like that POS?
Lazarus: As far as the demo scenario goes, I think it pretty much has to be something by Eph
dintiradan: (Janus is TM? Or someone else?
Niemand: No, no, it's just that you're the latest to call for it, TM.
Enraged Slith: yeah, that's what we were saying
Nikki: Yes, Janus is TM
Terrors Martyr: I'd want two scenarios of different styles.
Nikki: I agree
dintiradan: Ideally, you'd want a scenario that people can play after VoDT. And hopefully something after that.
Nikki: We have a list somewhere
Nikki: hold on
Enraged Slith: I hate to keep bringing up more problems, but shouldn't Jeff advertise the editor better, and possibly even just switch it to the 3d editor?
Terrors Martyr: I mean, my scenario would probably constitute one "extreme"... but it may be too extr--
Terrors Martyr: HEY
Niemand: That would be best, yes, ES.
Terrors Martyr: WHY don't we COLLABORATE to make these scenarios?
Enraged Slith: okay, I'll write it, you make it
Lazarus: w00t!!1!!
Terrors Martyr: No, I'm serious.
Nikki: Go on, TM
Terrors Martyr: We should draft a story together.
Lazarus: No, don't. gtfo
dintiradan: Really? I thought you were always pessimistic about collaboratives.
Niemand: I think that would be awesome, we just can't fail like previous times. Got that everyone? No failure.
Terrors Martyr: And we can write different towns/outdoor sections on our own, and then import them later.
Nikki: Dude, Not all collabs failed.
Lazarus: Didn't you do a collab once TM?
Nikki: EP?
Terrors Martyr: Yeah.
Niemand: True, but yours was small, Nikki.
Terrors Martyr: I inserted myself as a god. 
Enraged Slith: EP wasn't a failure? 
Lazarus: Did it suck because of the collaboration part, or did you suck as individuals?
Niemand: It hasn't been ruled out that it was a statistical fluctuation of suckiness. (Actually, I haven't even played it.)
Lazarus: Oh no, I offended TM and killed blades for good... 
Terrors Martyr: What does "statistical fluctuation" mean, other than "they're unusually sucky"?
Terrors Martyr: (I thought you were referring to EP.)
dintiradan: Hey Niemand, think we can teach the non-techies how to use svn?
Lazarus: I don't remember which of yours was made with Sullust.
Niemand: We could, but we don't have a suitable file format yet.
Terrors Martyr: http://forum.nethergate.net/index.php?showtopic=727
Terrors Martyr: The collaborative effort.
Terrors Martyr: I wonder if it's even on my computer anymore. 
Nikki: Insightful reviews, there.
Lazarus: Oh, I thought it was one of your earlier ones. Well I haven't p layed it, but it has a shitty rep
Terrors Martyr: Hahaha.
dintiradan: Yeah, the .bas file is a problem, probably easiest to e-mail that around. But the scripts at least can be doable.
Terrors Martyr: Sullust basically made it at first.
Niemand: I started on the improved format, but I sort of haven't finished yet.
Enraged Slith: What if we worked on a ported scenario
Terrors Martyr: And then I made it AWESOME.
Niemand: We can cripple by on email if we have to, though.
Enraged Slith: BoE is already open source
Enraged Slith: Jeff wouldn't be risking anything that way
Enraged Slith: plus we could pull from a pool of these awesome scenarios I hear so much about
Nikki: Porting sucks.
Niemand: How would BoE being FOSS help?
Enraged Slith: I figured it was free now
Enraged Slith: maybe I'm just stupid
Enraged Slith: don't hit me
Lazarus: It is, but the question is how it helps.
Lazarus: Because only one of us here knows BoE.
Enraged Slith: I dunno
Enraged Slith: it was just an idea
Lazarus: Well I'm going to hit you. 
Lazarus: Port Roots
Lazarus: Or Emulations.
Nikki: I tried porting Emulations.
Enraged Slith: You don't even know where I live
Nikki: Lets not try again.
Lazarus: It should have been done a while ago, instead of fucking River and Leaf
Lazarus: Roots would probably be easier than Emulations.
Niemand: We don't need BoE. Isn't the point that we can make our _own_ good stuff?
Lazarus: Emulations had some funky stuff in it. Roots just had timers.
Enraged Slith: the point is to attract more people to try our stuff
Enraged Slith: if we can lie to them, we've already got them hooked
dintiradan: Slithy just gave us the new slogan for our effort.
dintiradan: "Try BoA - the first one is free!"
Enraged Slith: 
dintiradan: Clearly, the hypothetical free scenario must contains skribbane.
Niemand: And it is. But it's not addictive enough. Can we infuse a scenario with nicotine?
Terrors Martyr: slartucker has joined this chat.
It musts.
Niemand: Scratch that, skribbane is a better choice.
slartucker: yo hey.
Lazarus: Heyo
Terrors Martyr: ...we could just implant electrodes in the players' brains.
Enraged Slith: who is the newcomer?
Niemand: Slarty
dintiradan: Slarty of the blinding yellow text.
slartucker: blinding yellow text?
Lazarus: He's green for me
slartucker: try default AIM text.
Niemand: It's pale green.
Enraged Slith: oh okay
Nikki: Slarty's black, y'all.
dintiradan: Ah, never mind me. Still very much an AIM noob,.
slartucker: so did anything get conversated about boa gold.
slartucker: ?
Enraged Slith: that's what we're discussing
Niemand: Addictive scenario design is the current topic.
slartucker: meaning what?
slartucker: skribbane?
dintiradan: That, and subliminal messages.
Enraged Slith: we were thinking: one example of a good scenario, one "piece it together yourself" scenario
slartucker: that piece it together idea sounds like it has promise.
Niemand: That way people could see what can be done, and how it's done.
slartucker: reminds me of that mini-scenario TM put together.
Terrors Martyr: Which?
Lazarus: You know, if it's too much effort to convince people to buy BoA there are always more unscrupulous methods.....
dintiradan: Yeah, Settlers was great.
slartucker: settlers, I think
Terrors Martyr: (Laz--that was MY idea!)
Lazarus: Yeah, I gave you the lead in to bring it up but you wouldn't! 
Enraged Slith: So we threaten Jeff to advertise for us or we'll point people in the wrong direction?
Niemand: Laz: I already suggested hacking peoples computers and installing BoA against their will.
dintiradan: The only problem with Settlers is you get the scenario in one piece, albeit with a design document.
slartucker: christ, people. you need to realize that jeff is not a factor in this.
Enraged Slith: it was a joke
Niemand: Agreed. Settlers is good, let's just build another and leave it not quite complete.
dintiradan: If there was a tutorial hosted, showing how to make one bit by bit, much like the very short example Jeff has in the docs.
slartucker: BoA Gold is a great idea, but ALL it will ever be if Jeff is involved is marketing packaging and BoA with a few boring scenarios.
slartucker: he won't change the registration barrier.
dintiradan: Except our example would also show how to do custom graphics, simple scripts, etc.
dintiradan: Rather than just town design.
slartucker: here's another thought:
slartucker: what about a player-made BoA Gold package, not affiliated with SW but perhaps attractive and family friendly enough to get a prominent link on the BoA page?
slartucker: coming with the tutorial scenario being discussed, plus some written instructions, the cookbook or somesuch, some examples of extra graphics, and a few gem scenarios
Lazarus: But without a lifted barrier, what is BoA gold?
slartucker: something for players who DO register
Niemand: Trouble is, that won't entice anyone who hasn't already bough the game.
slartucker: to get them actually hooked.
slartucker: right
slartucker: you're not going to get people to buy the game
slartucker: at least not directly -- if you really hook someone you might get a sale from a friend of theirs
dintiradan: A player made BoA Gold shows prospective buyers that BoA is mature enough to have the same amount of good content to rival a JV game.
Terrors Martyr: So your idea is to make people who buy the game likelier to join the community?
dintiradan: (Or best it, depending on your stance.)
slartucker: given that the registration barrier isn't changing (and it's not) your objective should really be to hook the people who are about to buy BoA, or who bought it and are interested but never bothered to explore much
Terrors Martyr: (Best it by far)
slartucker: essentially, TM.
slartucker: but there are also a lot of people out there who HAVE bought the game, who like the idea of making scenarios, and have never done it
slartucker: a certain chunk of them would TOTALLY start given a good tutorial
Enraged Slith: I agree
Terrors Martyr: Whether JV loosens the registration barrier depends on sales figures.
slartucker: the packaged BoA editor is not easy to approach
Terrors Martyr: *might depend
slartucker: dude, he's not going to.
slartucker: partly because of sales, but partly because of laziness.
Enraged Slith: we should get a list of emails of everyone who has bought the game
Niemand: The 3D editor was a big step forward, but it's hardly a silver bullet.
Terrors Martyr: My thought was, we could offer to do it for him.
Niemand: ES: that would proably violate the agreement under which the list was collected.
slartucker: it almost convinced me to make a scenario, niemand.
Enraged Slith: again, not serious
slartucker: imban should send you some of his 
Terrors Martyr: Would JV be willing to send an email out to all people who bought the game?
slartucker: no way jose.
dintiradan: Mailing list, maybe.
slartucker: no way jose.
Enraged Slith: what would be wrong with the mailing list?
slartucker: at best it could get a bullet point mention in the once (or is it twice) a year newsletter
Niemand: That's what his mailing list is you know, for.
slartucker: you're missing the point.
slartucker: jeff does not believe in BoA.
Niemand: The fact that no one subscibes to it would merely be a pesky detail.
slartucker: he does believe in his other games, and in his customers.
dintiradan: Even if we wrote the e-mail for him ()
Lazarus: I think what they're talking about isn't the mailing but using the emails people used when registering
Nikki: Is there any way at all to make coding simpler? Like, for example, a program a designer would use to do it for him. So he could click a button labelled "dialog box", stick some text that he wanted displaying, and then check a box to say whether its a one shot.
slartucker: he's NOT going to spam his customers for something most of them are not interested in
Terrors Martyr: Because JV doesn't believe in BoA, I'm most inclined to pirate it for him.
Lazarus: Yep
slartucker: Nikki: yes, it's called the Blades of Exile Editor.
Niemand: Nikki: No, not really.
Nikki: Slarty - that was basically what I was thinking of when I thought of that.
Niemand: BoE's nodes pretty much do the same things, but ina more cumbersome way.
dintiradan: (Crap, I keep on forgetting Saralfur == Nikki)
slartucker: I mean let's be honest, that's the #1 reasons boa never picked up more.
slartucker: that damn editor.
Lazarus: You could totally write BoA script as nodes. there's no state limit, is there?
Terrors Martyr: There is none.
Lazarus: The problem is writing a scenario editor that basically prompted you for what would go in each node, then wrote it.
Enraged Slith: I agree, the only reason I bought BoA was because I knew BoE had been more successful.
Enraged Slith: I was committed to the notion that I would learn how to script and make a scenario.
slartucker: I can't actually remember if I bought BoA or not
slartucker: I think I did
slartucker: yeah, that's right, I played 10 minutes of bahssikava and 3 minutes of mad ambition once.
Enraged Slith: good investment?
Lazarus: Well honestly the idea with the most potential so far is the "door to door piracy" idea
Niemand: Hello, can I interest you in this fine, stolen software?
Enraged Slith: I'm also selling these fine leather jackets.
Lazarus: Well not literally knocking on doors. Just leaving pirated copies in places nerds would pick it up. 
slartucker: I need a designer bag for agrias.
Enraged Slith: Admittedly, this game is not something I would pay $25 for if I didn't want to design for it.
slartucker: WTF? ackrovan thinks god is gay?
slartucker: where do they come up with this shit
dintiradan: ^ ?
slartucker: http://thespireofarchon.webs.com/apps/blog/
Niemand: He's an idiot, and best ignored.
Nikki: "Did Jesus really walk on water, or did he just run really fast, like the Flash? "
Nikki: Oh my.
Enraged Slith: he's just young
dintiradan: He's a young angsty kid with access to the Internet.
dintiradan: A dangerous combination.
Enraged Slith: don't be so hard on him
slartucker: and boat oil, apparently.
dintiradan: (Sniped by ES)
Niemand: Clearly only a homosexual being could create a universe.
Enraged Slith: he'd have to be a masochist too
slartucker: he must be wrong. the universe isn't nearly fabulous enough.
Enraged Slith: not enough glitter?
dintiradan: Slarty: But you have in your mind the concept of fabulousness, do you not?
slartucker: there's stardust in your hair, enraged slith
slartucker: actually, I've never really understood fabulousness
dintiradan: Fab God is the being for which no more fabulous thing can exist.
slartucker: and the Fabversary, then?
Enraged Slith: funny story: I once witnessed a car drive through the turning lane to bypass the traffic jam everyone was stuck in. The license plate, in big pink letters read: FABULOUS
Lazarus: That website makes my brain hurt. Don't link to it again
Lazarus: And this fab-god has the potential to become the new cow god. Kill it.
slartucker: hah
Niemand: Do you use some sort of pesticide to kill gods?
Enraged Slith: small pox
slartucker: really fucking big pox
Terrors Martyr: ...this is not even remotely BoA-related anymore.
Enraged Slith: well, let's get back on track
Terrors Martyr: So.
Enraged Slith: so, convincing Jeff of anything is essentially pointless?
Terrors Martyr: I'm inclined to agree...
Enraged Slith: we got him to put a small note in the news section about our annual contest
slartucker: I think that was established in 2004 or so
Niemand: I'm not so convinced of that, but let's not count on it.
Terrors Martyr: (Well before 2004.)
slartucker: small notes in newsletters are doable.
Terrors Martyr: (Alcritas was bitching about JV's incompetence ever since I joined.)
slartucker: whatever happened to Alcritas anyway? did he ever resurface?
Enraged Slith: I just don't see why he wouldn't try to sell the community, at least a little. It's half of the game right there.
dintiradan: The whole mail fraud thing, right?
Nikki: It still is worth asking for the registration barrier to be shifted a little. He might say no. He probably will, but if we put forward a good argument...
slartucker: he will definitely say no.
slartucker: it is NOT WORTH IT because he will become closed off to further advances from y'all
slartucker: ask for things he is willing to do first. push the envelope very, very, slowly
slartucker: if he sees a response from newsletter notes, he'll be more receptive to anything else
Terrors Martyr: (Alcritas yelled about JV often.)
slartucker: or from a player-driven BoA Gold package, etc
Terrors Martyr: My idea is, Phase 1 should be "everything that's very easy for JV to do."
Enraged Slith: well the BoA gold package is good, the more in-depth tutorials are good too
slartucker: *nod nod*
Enraged Slith: that's community side
Enraged Slith: we could probably put more advertising on the BoA boards
Terrors Martyr: Newsletter notices, updating CSR and its links thereto, and BoA Gold seem like good beginnings.
slartucker: *nod nod*
Enraged Slith: we could do something more special with judging this 24hour contest
Niemand: How so?
Enraged Slith: I know that LPs are fun to read, maybe we could do something similar
Terrors Martyr: LPs?
Enraged Slith: screenshots, commentary, the works
slartucker: BoA Gold is the best one of all. People won't care about links to websites they aren't going to follow, but an ACTUAL "SOFTWARE PACKAGE" will make people BELIEVE the community is alive
Enraged Slith: Let's Play <game name>
Terrors Martyr: Hunh?
Enraged Slith: http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/forumdisplay.php?f=15
Terrors Martyr: Honestly, all of the Phase 1 stuff should be done no matter what else we do.
Terrors Martyr: Phase 2, depending on JV, will either be "that which takes up more of JV's time" or "that which takes food out of his family's mouths".
Niemand: BoA puts no food in their mouths to begin with.
slartucker: I think JV stuff should really be phase 3.
Niemand: And phase 2 consists of what, then?
dintiradan: Crazy idea: should we start our own Blades newsletter? Something designed to get the attention of lurkers who don't visit the boards.
slartucker: I don't know what phase 2 would be, but without a step in between phase 3 will never happen
slartucker: *that* is another good idea.
Enraged Slith: it consists of digging for stuff to blackmail
Niemand: How do we get people to sign up, Dinti?
dintiradan: At the end of each new scenario, print a popup saying "Subscribe to the BoA mailing list at boa@foo.net
Niemand: Sounds good.
dintiradan: And send out a notice everytime a scenario is released.
Enraged Slith: so we're thinking of a semi-annual newsletter then?
slartucker: it can be more than that.
Niemand: Monthly or so would be better if we could scrape together enough activity.
Terrors Martyr: Agreed.
dintiradan: Granted, the newletter would only be useful for those who already own Blades, not prospective buyers.
slartucker: there's no way around that.
Terrors Martyr: My thought for phase 2a: Loosen registration barriers, edit BoA to include the gold package by default, convince JV to send out a one-time email to BoA registrants petitioning them to join the newsletter.
Lazarus: ES: What exactly was it you had in mind regarding the 24 hour contest?
Terrors Martyr: If that fails, then phase 2b involves CD drops and mass distribution online.
Enraged Slith: I was thinking something along the lines of LPs
Lazarus: I'm all about getting new people involved. That's the whole fucking point of the contest.
slartucker: none of those things will happen (2a)
Lazarus: Posted at SW, or posted at an LP site for outside exposure?
slartucker: adding BoA Gold to default BoA... mayyyybe
Enraged Slith: if we could entertain people with the results, they might be interested in seeing what we do in the future
slartucker: registration barriers and emails to BoA buyers will -never- happen.
Nikki: Posted at both, Laz?
Lazarus: Yeah, I suppose posting them at SW is a given.
Lazarus: Since anything blades related gets cross posted there
Lazarus: I've never really seen an LP before, but I can see how they'd be fun. I enjoyed reading Imban's Avatar/Pariah stuff
Lazarus: And that didn't even have any pretty pictures. 
Terrors Martyr: We should probably list our requests in the order of their difficulty to JV.
Enraged Slith: have you read his blog?
Terrors Martyr: Honestly, I think we're just going to end up breaking the law if we really want to popularize this beast.
Niemand: Frankly, none of the idea proposed is difficult for JV. Some he just may not like anyway.
Enraged Slith: he is so set in the fact that everyone hates him, that I think he strives for it
slartucker: I really doubt breaking the law will make it that much more popular.
Terrors Martyr: Really? "FREE GAME CLICK HERE"?
slartucker: Really.
Terrors Martyr: ...eh.
dintiradan: Jewels has joined this chat.
The purpose of his blog is to attract attention from Slashdot and other news sites, so his games get more coverage.
slartucker: anyone who will click on "FREE GAME CLICK HERE" will not be interested in BoA.
Terrors Martyr: ...you know, maybe we should all just move to an editor system that doesn't have an asshole running it.
slartucker: and what web sites want to run a feature on a 5 year old game being distributed illegally by its players?
Enraged Slith: I know what the purpose is, I'm just saying that he actually accepts the fact that most people wont like his ideas. He even keywords some of his entries: "everyone will hate this"
slartucker: that's just his attitude towards the world. it long predates his programming life.
Enraged Slith: what about popular rpg gaming forums?
Enraged Slith: like gamebanshee?
Enraged Slith: couldn't we advertise to them and see if some people bite?
slartucker: again, they'll never cover a 5 year old game that was DOA and has, what, 20 dedicated players?
dintiradan: You _might_ have some luck in fan sites for similar games, like Eshcaton-whatever-it-is, but not mainstream sites.
Enraged Slith: I remember reading in one of the reviews for BoA that Jeff stated the game was selling better than he anticipated
slartucker: that was probably just him trying to sell it
Niemand: That sounds like the reverse of everything i've ever heard him say.
slartucker: if he said it was selling poorly nobody would go look at it
Enraged Slith: My point is, a lot of the people on these sites actually know who Jeff is
slartucker: it's just advertising
dintiradan: Might just be very early sales, when Exile fans were switching over.
Enraged Slith: though most of them actively hate his guts
Enraged Slith: well, let's start on that BoA Gold package
Enraged Slith: make it a file download on the forums
Enraged Slith: put some tutorials together
Enraged Slith: and pretend we're more fun of a group than we really are
Jewels: We could make our own ads.
Terrors Martyr: ...what's this new person?
Niemand: But we have nowhere to display them without buying ad space.
Niemand: It's Jewels
Jewels: you never heard of you tube?
dintiradan: Also, let's be realistic. If we increase player membership by 40% and designers by 20%, that would be a PHENOMENAL success.
slartucker: it's true.
Terrors Martyr: ...eh, maybe not phenomenal.
Terrors Martyr: It'd be, like, 2 designers. 
Niemand: I would consider it a great more forward.
slartucker: also necessary. how many current BoA designers are in college and will be graduating in the next year and possibly having less free time?
Terrors Martyr: It would be good.
Enraged Slith: there are a couple of on-the-edge guys right now
Enraged Slith: that duck guy
Terrors Martyr: I graduate this semester. I'm taking a year off, but nonetheless.
Enraged Slith: and that guy who designed a beta scenario and then split
slartucker: um, duck is not an on-the-edge designer.
Niemand: I know Ephesos is graduating. I don't know what his plans are afterward.
slartucker: duck = uber, in case you ahven't figured that out.
Enraged Slith: who is uber
Nikki: Oh god no.
slartucker: he's a 10 year old who thinks he understands quantum physics
Enraged Slith: I've never posted much at SW, I've just been here a hell of a long time
Lazarus: Huh?
Lazarus: What's this about quantum physics on sw?
Niemand: http://www.ironycentral.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9488&page=22
Lazarus: ES: you mean that foreign guy on shadow vale?
Nikki: Uber was the one with a bajillion posts, right?
Enraged Slith: yes
slartucker: yes.
Kelandon: Dude, graduating from college means being unemployed and having TONS of free time.
Enraged Slith: yes to the foreign guy
Kelandon: I think we should look forward to designers graduating.
slartucker: if ephesos is unemployed, I think he will put his hair out and not be in a creative space at all
slartucker: pull
Enraged Slith: so who here is in college
Enraged Slith: like right now
Enraged Slith: Dahak has joined this chat.
besides me
Kelandon: Not I.
dintiradan: And, if Eph really wants to get into game design, he should focus on more areas than BoA.
Terrors Martyr: I
Lazarus: I
Niemand: I'm a first year grad student, so I will be for another 4 to 5 years.
Enraged Slith: he was branching into that ocean game
Enraged Slith: he's a traitor 
dintiradan: I think he does already (that summer camp thing among others), but still.
slartucker: lazarus, tm, ephesos. more, I think.
Lazarus: Well I'm on break as of today
Lazarus: Just got home
Enraged Slith: lucky
Nikki: I'm not in college.
dintiradan: I'm on the last four months of my internship, then the last year of my degree.
dintiradan: (Not that I contribute anything, but hey.)
Enraged Slith: I've still got a large project to finish for my Systems Engineering class
slartucker: Jewels wishes she was back in college.
you contribute your big head.
dintiradan: *helmet
Nikki: (Oh, Slithy, good work on the new wooden floor.)
Lazarus: Is systems engineering actually a major, or just a class you're taking?
Enraged Slith: thank Luz
Enraged Slith: it's a major
Lazarus: And what project is that?
Lazarus: Hmm. I don't think UF offers that. Or at least they call it something different
Enraged Slith: I'm part of a group writing a paper on (and go easy on me, this is a freshman level class) the way e-commerce/internet has changed the way companies conduct business.
dintiradan: Bloody big topic, that.
Enraged Slith: fresh. man.
Lazarus: My tech writing class was pure misery. Engineers shouldn't be made to write
Dahak: Yes they should.
Lazarus: 'tis unnatural.
slartucker: i was so happy to get out of school, and i've been putting off grad school for way too long now.
Lazarus: Hey, where the fuck did dahak come from?
Dahak: 
Nikki: If you have to ask, at your age...
Nikki: *shakes head*
Kelandon: As long as we're mildly off-topic
Enraged Slith: systems engineering is essentially just being realistic about one's future in that degree
Kelandon: someone give me a halfway decent idea for a short scenario.
Dahak: Engineers had better learn to write tech specs well. If I have to spend 12 bloody hours correcting 1 spec again...
dintiradan: WALL OGRES
Enraged Slith: from what I understand, almost no one actually "designs" like you do in your mechanical class
Kelandon: Wall ogres.
dintiradan: YES, WALL OGRES
Niemand: Indeed. Wall ogres.
slartucker: seriously, I have wanted a wall ogre scenario.
Kelandon: Like, ogres coming out of the walls?
Kelandon: I am confused.
slartucker: I will download it and play the whole damn thing, I promise.
Niemand: Where else would wall ogres come from?
Nikki: I think Eph's doing wall ogres for his 24hr thing
Enraged Slith: in case no one ever picked it up, the wall of ogres in KTD was a reference to that beautiful April Fools prank
slartucker: squee!
Lazarus: Oh cool, so I win by default.
Enraged Slith: and the fact that I asked if the idea was up for grabs
Nikki: Oi, Slack, no.
Nikki: You only won last time cus I didn't participate.
Kelandon: Okay, so idea #2. Go.
Lazarus: Only reason you didn't participate was because you knew I'd win
Enraged Slith: When does that contest start?
dintiradan: FLOOR OGRES.
Lazarus: So it's the same thing. 
dintiradan: Okay, so I got nothing.
Niemand: Ceiling Ogres!
Lazarus: Uh, like the 20th?
Enraged Slith: It's Raining Ogres?
Enraged Slith: Expect something nonsensical from me again.
Kelandon: Floor Ogre, Win Prize?
Lazarus: I'll probably start something before then to make sure I still remember how to use the editor. 
dintiradan: Work on the Creative Scenario contest, perhaps?
dintiradan: Or has everyone forgotten about that?
Lazarus: I never was involved with that
Nikki: No, I still have an entry
Niemand: Nor was I.
Lazarus: I'm not creative enough. 
Dahak: Short Scenario: You find an enchanted scroll. Its magics cause the message to keep changing and the only way to uncover the truth is to find a wizard powerful enough to break the spell. However, this wizard is not hospitable. Can you get to him, alive?
Kelandon: I haven't forgotten about it. I never paid attention to it in the first place.
slartucker: Julus Caesar in scenario form.
slartucker: Where in Valorim is Carmen Squiggus?
Dahak: Carmen?
Dahak: I know of Squiggus
Nikki: Squiggus is a town, isn't it?
Dahak: But who is Carmen?
dintiradan: Carmen Sandiego, I think.
slartucker: *facepalm*
slartucker: thank you.
Dahak: ...
dintiradan: An awesome TV show that tested kids on geography.
slartucker: TV show?
slartucker: bah
Kelandon: Dahak may win the "come up with an idea for Kel" contest.
slartucker: that came later
slartucker: it was a series of kickass late 80s computer games
dintiradan: Okay, fine, computer games too, but I never played them.
Niemand: Those games were awesome.
slartucker: Broderbund's finest.
Dahak: I have Where in Time is Carmen San Diego.
Enraged Slith: YES
Dahak: Fuuuun.
slartucker: the opening theme to the Apple ][ version is among my favourite pieces of music
Enraged Slith: Just to bring this back on topic for a second, what exactly did you all want to include in this Gold package?
Enraged Slith: the top 10 scenarios?
Dahak: We have 10 grade A scenarios for different level ranges?
Niemand: Maybe the top 10 from unique designers?
slartucker: unique level ranges and designers, ideally.
Dahak: That are not too difficult for first time Avernum players?
Niemand: From TM we should consider E:R, MA, and Canopy.
Niemand: From Laz; Frostbite and the Tales.
slartucker: split them into 2 folders: "Intermediate Scenarios" and "Expert Scenarios" - TM and Frostbite and such can go there
Dahak: Is this Gold package to inspire new designers or create a greater base of players?
dintiradan: Rats Aplenty for a humour scenario, or maybe Kill Them Dead (haven't played it yet).
Enraged Slith: I would not recommend Tales, despite the fact that it is one of my favorites
dintiradan: Both, preferrably.
Enraged Slith: not KTD
Enraged Slith: trust me
Enraged Slith: not unless I cleaned it up
Nikki: KTD is funnier than Rats
Nikki: IMO
Niemand: I agree
Enraged Slith: humor is subjective.
Enraged Slith: Rats is much less confusing and is designed well
Niemand: Let's say Frostbite is Lazarus contribution.
dintiradan: Be fair on yourself: nobody finds themself funny.
Dahak: Shades of Gray?
slartucker: cleaner, more understandable designers are critical.
slartucker: designs, I mean
Niemand: Either SoG or Embers.
slartucker: god, can't type tonight
Nikki: Embers
Enraged Slith: is SoG the ghosts one?
Niemand: Yes. My personal opinion is to favor Embers as well.
dintiradan: Embers has tres pretty outdoors, but SoG has that cathedral.
dintiradan: We want eye candy, in any case.
Enraged Slith: I recall SoG being very difficult
Nikki: Embers.
Enraged Slith: my party got stuck there
Nikki: srsly
Enraged Slith: no spellcasters
Enraged Slith: I got to like the top of the tower
Enraged Slith: I'm pretty sure those ghosts were practically immune to physical attacks
Niemand: FB is level irrelevant, since it destroys the party, right?
Nikki: yes
Dahak: Hmmm.. The Scenario Facelift Program. Revisit oldies are revamp their look so we have top notch scenery porn...
Dahak: *and revamp
Niemand: I think Bahs is necessary.
Lazarus: I beat SoG with a level 1 party
Enraged Slith: DIE
Lazarus: At least the beta. Dunno if he changed things
dintiradan: It is the scenario that ties in with the trilogy the most.
slartucker: bahs would be the very high level scenario included, right?
Jewels: * echoes Embers
Nikki: Yes, Slarty
Niemand: I think so, Slarty.
Enraged Slith: rats, echoes, embers, bahs
slartucker: frostbite
Lazarus: Embers or SoG would be my choice if we were choosing a single scenario, like the lifted barrier idea
Enraged Slith: yes
Enraged Slith: FG
Niemand: (Bahs is 35-45, for the record)
slartucker: that counts as "very high level" for players used to JV scenarios
Niemand: Indeed, I just wanted to share the numbers.
Enraged Slith: I personally like Canopy more than Bahs
Kelandon: Bahs was intended for players who'd just finished all four JV scenarios.
dintiradan: Again, another one I haven't played yet, but what about Blades of Rogue. Good for converting hack'n'slash and nethack players, and displays what power BoA has.
Kelandon: If you're going to have anything by me, Bahs would make the most sense.
Lazarus: Canopy is a total shitshow though, and TM has better to offer
slartucker: Blades of Rogue would be a great addition, IMHO.
Nikki: Bahs also has a plot, something Canopy is mostly missing.
Enraged Slith: I suppose it just depends on what you like
Jewels: Canopy is my favorite TM scenario.
BoR is more of a designers scenario though
Jewels: to appreciate it anyway
dintiradan: Canopy has philosophy, and the last thing this community needs is more talk. 
slartucker: there's 10 scenarios, there's room for variety.
Enraged Slith: I would suggest adding Canopy and Bahs together
Enraged Slith: because I think it would be funny to see them paired
slartucker: canopy is really hte TM scenario you want to include?
Enraged Slith: no
Nikki: No.
Jewels: no
Enraged Slith: if it's just one per designer, go with Echoes
dintiradan: (And they got first and second on the first Blades contest.)
slartucker: I just think, if any designer is going to be doubled up, it probably shouldn't be TM. not because he doesn't deserve it, but because he is not -accessible-. accessibility is key here
Jewels: I like Bahs
Lazarus: Was MoC mentioned?
Nikki: yes, laz
Enraged Slith: not over Rats
Lazarus: I'd take that over any of Smoo's stuff
Niemand: We're getting to MoC
Enraged Slith: No way over Rats
Niemand: In fact, yes, I would choose that over Rats.
slartucker: Rats is different from the others we're listing
Nikki: MoC is long and Vogelian, though
Enraged Slith: Rats is almost perfect
slartucker: I vote rats any day, unless smoo makes the wall ogres.
dintiradan: Rats over MoC, because of the humour if nothing else. We need variety in this pack.
Lazarus: I never reviewed MoC, but I remember having very positive thoughts after playing it. That was back when I was a BoA newb, it was released right aroudn when I joined
Lazarus: It's very accessible. A lot of fun stuff there.
Enraged Slith: I need to play MoC again
Enraged Slith: I never completed it (I got lost)
Niemand: I enjoyed MoC. Rats was just boring. However, Bahs and MoC fill the same large, high level scenario niche.
Nikki: It could do without the time travel twist, but otherwise, it's good, agreed.
dintiradan: Also, Rats is low level. What other suggestions do we have that are low level?
Enraged Slith: Rats was not boring
Lazarus: See, the time travel twist isn't great but its a fun gimmick.
Lazarus: What with teh statues and such, and falling into a cart of hay. 
Enraged Slith: APF needs to be in there
Enraged Slith: just a heads up
Nikki: Yeah, I guess 
Lazarus: I didn't like APF to be honest
Enraged Slith: as a Challenging scenario
Nikki: APF has shocking outdoors design.
Nikki: Otherwise, I'd say to stick it in.
slartucker: The complete list so far is what? Rats, Frostbite, Bahs, Echoes, Embers?
Lazarus: Shockingly shitty if I recall correctly
dintiradan: I don't remember APF being easy in the slightest, especially the end fight, but that was mostly because I was playing a bad singleton.
Niemand: Yes, that's what I have written down.
Enraged Slith: Just as a heads up to all of you, you should all go replay Babysitting
slartucker: APF was the last scenario I played when I first bought blades, before giving up on it. case closed 
Enraged Slith: despite not being polished, there's a lot of innovation packed into that little scenario
dintiradan: (AFK for a while.)
Jewels: If we're looking for variet here, I liked HIM.
Lazarus: Emerald Mountain is quite good, if we want toned down TM
slartucker: what about Settlers?
Jewels: ick
Nikki: And EM is pretty
Lazarus: That's another personal favorite. Avatar too, but apparently I'm the only one
Niemand: A agree that Em is a good choice.
Nikki: ITS > Avatar
Niemand: Avatar I haven't played.
Lazarus: I think I'm just biased about Avatar. And fuck no Nikki. Fuck no
Nikki: Avatar was good, but probably the weakest of those three 24 hour scenarios.
Niemand: ITS?
Nikki: IMAGINE THIS SCENARIO
Niemand: Heck no.
Lazarus: I thought Avatar might beat me in that contest, since it was basically a TM Tale. Apparently nobody else was impressed
slartucker: okay, I have a new list: foul hordes, undead valley, nephilim mytery...
Nikki: I wasn't suggesting we include it, I was just saying that it's better than Avatar 
Enraged Slith: three scenarios I have never played
Nikki: Shitwrecked
Nikki: Stick that on in and we got a seller
Niemand: The worst f them all, that.
Lazarus: Muffins 'n Hell
Enraged Slith: Night at the Sol Tavern Inn
Lazarus: RELEASE THAT
slartucker: Blades of Avernum: Shitwrecked Edition
Enraged Slith: I'm remaking it
Jewels: Nikki needs a scenario in there, what do we like best of his?
Lazarus: The one where it ends in like 10 seconds
Lazarus: What was that one called?
Nikki: Err...
Niemand: Twilight Valley is usually considered his best, it seems.
Nikki: Phew for a minute.
Enraged Slith: I haven't played TV
Enraged Slith: I really should
Lazarus: Yep, that one.
slartucker: by a wide margin on CSR.
Nikki: The only one long enough to even be worth it is TV though.
Enraged Slith: damn I'm behind
Nikki: TV (and I suppose AG is my only real scenario anyway, though. The rest were gimmicks.
slartucker: where the rivers meet?
slartucker: it's the next highest rated on CSR from a designer not used yet
Nikki: It'd need polish, Slarty
Nikki: A lot.
Enraged Slith: never played it
Niemand: WtRM wasn't very well polished, last I heard.
Enraged Slith: I hated those monster graphics
Jewels: Again I say HIM for thralni
slartucker: well, I'm not sure how many options you have left, then.
Lazarus: HIM if he finishes it, as per my Wolf review
Niemand: I think HIM is likely the choice from Thralni.
Jewels: HIM was odd, but in a good way.
Lazarus: Where it sort of looks like i'm tearing him a new asshole....
Enraged Slith: what about Stairway?
Nikki: The last third of HIM should be amazing
Nikki: Don't worry.
Niemand: Stairway is not my best work.
Jewels: but it was neat.
slartucker: Dintiradan had a good point about Blades of Rogue as well.
Niemand: It was made in two 10 hour coding binges.
slartucker: what about babysitting? somebody mentioned that
Lazarus: Meh to babysitting
Jewels: I haven't played it yet.
Niemand: I liked Babysitting.
Enraged Slith: I mentioned it because everyone needs to play it
Enraged Slith: but it's buggy
Enraged Slith: and unpolished
Enraged Slith: and ugly
Kelandon: Too short to make any kind of impression.
Lazarus:  this
Niemand: How so? I've played it like 5 times without problems.
Enraged Slith: the priest trapped me in the room
Enraged Slith: I had to use the editor
Enraged Slith: he also healed me weird
Niemand: And looked at you funny?
slartucker: So far we have: Rats, Frostbite, Bahs, Echoes, Embers, Twilight Valley, HIM. That leaves three slots. I am still voting for BoR
Enraged Slith: I don't know if people could appreciate how hard something like BoR is to make
Niemand: What's In the Shadow of Dragons like? I haven't played it.
Nikki: It's alright
Nikki: Fun
slartucker: the point of BoR is to appeal to a different type of player
slartucker: variety was one of the objectives, right?
Dahak: Polished?
Dahak: SoD, is polished?
Enraged Slith: I agree, I agree.
slartucker: hey, what about witch hunt?
dintiradan: Catching up: Settlers is a decent idea as a "You, yes, even YOU can design" scenario. And a certain someone needs to release Night at the Sol Tavern Inn.
Nikki: Town design is... average. Certainly not bad, but some of the ending town is. 
Enraged Slith: I said I was remaking it
Dahak: I can help with the town design.
Dahak: And fix it up.
slartucker: oh - duh.
slartucker: duh.
Niemand: Settlers isn't worth including if we're showing off our best stuff.
slartucker: HLPM
Nikki: How about The Cave of No Return?
Kelandon: Hah! That can be my contribution!
Kelandon: HLPM.
Niemand: I liked Cave of No Return, but many people seem to find it dull.
Nikki: I thought it was fun.
Enraged Slith: I thought it was alright
Enraged Slith: I don't think it's outstanding by any means though
dintiradan: Still catching up: TV is good include, a writing-heavy scenario by an actual writer. And yes, the HLPM _must_ be included.
slartucker: at this point I'd like to point out that every scenario with a CSR rating of 7.0 or higher is spoken for -- either it is included, vetoed, or its author has another scenario in already. (unless ISOD is accepted)
Enraged Slith: I would suggest a medium for players to design their own custom gear
Enraged Slith: since that's easy, and was something fun for me when I was younger
Niemand: Cannot be readily made in a pure scenario form.
slartucker: do the 7 included so far cover all the level range?
Niemand: TV and FB are essentially no level.
dintiradan: Just have a crapload of items available, and give the player the impression that they're making their own custom one.
Niemand: Embers is 10-15
Niemand: Rats is 1-5
Enraged Slith: so Artifact Hall too
Dahak: You can however take standard non-magic items and allow players to "enhance" them for a cost which results in enchanted weaponry.
slartucker: the best utility scenarios are no-brainers, I'd think
Dahak: A lot of custom items to code...
Niemand: And you wouldn't cover the space of possible items at all well.
Enraged Slith: alright, let's just think about adding that as a simple tutorial
Niemand: E:R is 20-25
Niemand: Good point ES, that should be a step in the build-your-own-scenario.
Niemand: Bahs is 35-45
Dahak: What covers the 25-25 gap?
Enraged Slith: ZKR
Enraged Slith: :D
Niemand: Narrow gap there.
Dahak: I was thinking custom scenarios.
Dahak: 25-35...
Dahak: *Sigh*
Enraged Slith: backwater?
slartucker: what's HIM?
Niemand: HIM is 15-25
slartucker: so 5-10 and 25-35 are the gaps
Enraged Slith: what about Backwater Calls?
Enraged Slith: isn't that 25-35?
Enraged Slith: or am I just not remembering it correctly?
Niemand: 30-45 actually, it seems.
Jewels: Witch Hunt wasn't terrible. does that fit in the 5-10?
slartucker: was it not terrible, or was it good?
Niemand: No it's another 1-5
Enraged Slith: I can think of one scenario that fits 5-10... 
Jewels: My review was 6.5 so a little lower than average
Nikki: ED?
slartucker: VODT?
Niemand: Express Delivery is about it for 3rd party as far as I know.
Enraged Slith: Crescent Valley?
Nikki: ED is 5-15
Terrors Martyr: Hee hee, back.
Niemand: However, it is true that VoDT does that job, and isn't going anywhere.
Nikki: Cresent (sic) Valley sucks.
Niemand: It should not be considered.
dintiradan: We don't have to fit every gap in the level range. We just have to make sure that by the time a party leaves one scenario in the Gold Pack, it's able to enter another one.
Enraged Slith: I know, but it's eeriely disturbing
slartucker: what about "BoA Gold Box"?
dintiradan: Heh.
Niemand: APF is 1-10.
Niemand: Should we consider it, or had we decided not to?
Lazarus: *Back*
slartucker: ugh.
Jewels: I liked it
Jewels: goes for the puzzle bufs
Lazarus: Oh, custom item creator is totally doable using those hacks. At least I could do the windows one I'm sure
Niemand: You found a reliable way to write something besides zeros?
Lazarus: I thought stains could write nonzeros? Or could that... Oh fuck, that wrote only powers of two, that's right
Niemand: And cannot write certain combinations of them. Yeah.
Lazarus: Umhmm. Damn, I forgot that complication
Niemand: Mind you, zeros are useful, but they only go so far.
Lazarus: It's enough for lighting
Lazarus: And... that's about it. 
dintiradan: "When I was your age, we didn't have this fancy 'binary'. We just had our zeroes, and we liked it that way."
Niemand: There are other. . . tricks, but they aren't terribly generally useful, and I'd prefer to keep a surprise or two up my sleeve.
Enraged Slith: Plus they can be really tough to pull off. Like I haven't quite pinned down the details yet.
Do we have a complete list yet?
Niemand: What I have is Rats, Frostbite, Bahs, Echoes, Embers, Twilight Valley, HIM, and the HLPM.
Terrors Martyr: Question: Do you really trust my level rankings for E:R?
Lazarus: I once made an apple make boat noises when you equipped it. I have no fucking clue how I did that
Nikki: Dude
dintiradan: It was the skribbane, dude.
Nikki: That would be the nest accessory evar
Niemand: I equip apples all the time.
Nikki: best*
Jewels: add APF to the list
Dahak: HLPM needs a facelift.
Kelandon: I'm thinking of closing the Library.
Enraged Slith: I think I beat Echoes with a HLPM party at level 15
Enraged Slith: that was in the beta though
Enraged Slith: and a bug prevented me from fighting the final boss
dintiradan: Keep the library if we're using it in the Gold release.
Nikki: i like the library
Kelandon: It's really, really out of date.
dintiradan: Besides, the library is good reading.
Kelandon: I like it, but there are getting to be too many scenarios to track easily.
Nimand
I haven't played any scenarios in ages, so it's hard for me to write much of anything about anything recent.
slartucker: I'm sure someone would volunteer to be the 'caretaker' and write new 'books' for it
Nikki: Heck, I wouldn't mind, if it came to it.
Kelandon: If anyone wants to e-mail me new books, I'll update it.
slartucker: the librarian, even.
Nikki: I'd want a cameo, though
slartucker: ceiling librarian... wall ogre librarian?
Nikki: Damn, sniped by Slarty 
Kelandon: Cameos in the HLPM can be given away like candy.
dintiradan: Have two rival librarians in the HLPM library, each keeping their own books on each side.
Kelandon: I think Drakey's in there for no reason.
Nikki: With kittens in the middle?
dintiradan: Chance for some good, funny dialog.
dintiradan: Nioca the Crystal Soul, if I remember correctly.
Dahak: Hmmm... Kel, mind if I redid the HLPM's look? I'll move over the code and redo the town(s).
Kelandon: Only if I can call that part of the Library the Perilous Carpet.
slartucker: and they give out quests to have you return some random book they left in some demon's possession halfway across terrestavernum. oh, wait...
Kelandon: Or something.
Kelandon: tyranicus86 has joined this chat.
What exactly are you going to do to its look?
Niemand: Oh hey! Make the HLPM's books pedestals, with a limited number per town.
tyranicus86: Hello all
Jewels: hi ya
Niemand: That way you can count toward the town's string limit, not the scenario's.
Dahak: Split into 4 more distinct areas.
Niemand: Hey, Tyran.
Nikki: No, pedestals would be teh suck.
Nikki: I like the books.
Niemand: Separate reading rooms.
slartucker: HLPM 2: The HLPM is visited by the black shade of stupidity
Kelandon: THAT'S IT
Niemand: Trouble is Kel, can only have a limited number of books if there are going to be any other items.
Kelandon: THAT'S MY NEXT SCEANRIO
Dahak: Hey Tyr
Kelandon: More distinct areas?
Kelandon: I mean, they're already different towns.
Dahak: They are! I'm a few versions out of date then...
dintiradan: Pedestals would make it easier to read the books; instead of looking at the shelf, picking up the book, and then using it, you just have to walk by a pedestal.
Niemand: But you can make as many towns to make up the library as you need.
Kelandon: I could make it all work by Search-Block instead of real items.
Niemand: Exactly.
Kelandon: Dahak: The current version is 1.2.something.
slartucker: really the easiest thing is to just read the txt file
dintiradan: Slarty: But that takes the fun out of it.
Niemand: That wouldn't have the same class, though.
Dahak: I have 1.1.2...
Niemand: Isn't it now like 1.2.3.4?
Kelandon: It's 1.2.5.1. 
dintiradan: What was the release where you split everything up into multiple towns? 2.1.x, or 2.2.x?
Kelandon: The separate towns was 1.2.
dintiradan: *1.1.x or 1.2.x
Lazarus: Wow, the HLPM had seperate towns when I showed up. I'm a newb
Dahak: Huh... BRB.
Niemand: Kel, are you planning to be like Knuth and have the version converge on some number, then?
Dahak: Going to d/l HLPM
Lazarus: Also, I use three e's in separate.
Enraged Slith: Jewels has left this chat.
Laz when did you join?
Kelandon: The change from 1.2.5 to 1.2.5.1 was really ridiculously small, so I didn't want to call it 1.2.6.
tyranicus86: Better than 4 E's
dintiradan: Niemand, there'd be, like, three people who'd get the joke if he did.
Kelandon: Apparently he joined after 8/23/05, which is when 1.2 came out.
Lazarus: August 2005. But I don't think I was involved with blades until early 06
Niemand: Actually it was 8/8/05
Nikki: alright, i can see sunlight, i'm off to bed
Kelandon: Whoops. I duplicated a date in the version history.
slartucker: ok, it's bedtime
Enraged Slith: good night sweet prince
slartucker: gah. gnite folks
Enraged Slith: princes
dintiradan: Night, you two.
Niemand: Good night.
Nikki: slarty, i said to leave it a few minutes after i said night 
Nikki: now they'll know
slartucker: *smack*
Enraged Slith: 
Terrors Martyr: So, it seems like we've easily wound down.
Terrors Martyr: What did we get done?
Nikki: I'll save the log up to this point and stick it online somewhere for anybody who wants it.
slartucker: TM's mom?
dintiradan: Gah.
Lazarus: I think the "build a scenario" had promise.
Enraged Slith: I think we decided BoA gold, + a list
tyranicus86: When did you turn int me, Nikki? 
Enraged Slith: and we're currently thinking about a tutorial
tyranicus86: *into
Enraged Slith: which we'll probably flesh out a little later
Nikki: The build-a-scenario deffo has promise
Niemand: I agree, and I'll do some more thinking on it.
Dahak: No offense Kel, but the towns are still... bleh. I'll redo anyways and you can say yea or nay.
Enraged Slith: maybe some sticky topics in both BoA and BoAeditor boards
dintiradan: BoA newsletter plug in the BoA Gold release.
Kelandon: Tell me what you're going to do to them.
Dahak: Visual redesign.
Kelandon: That's not very specific.
Terrors Martyr: Okay, so we're going to rearrange CSR, set up BoA Gold with a tutorial scenario, resources and our best scenarios, and...
Dahak: I know. My boss hates that too.
Lazarus: Queer eye for the straight HLPM
Nikki: Does the HLPM need reworking I mean, it's meant to be functional.
Nikki: Not pretty.
Dahak: So?
Niemand: TM: Also create the mailing list.
Terrors Martyr: Okay.
Dahak: Consider the marketing impact.
Lazarus: I missed the CSR discussion. Was there any conclusion?
Nikki: That was phase 1, TM
Enraged Slith: as a catalog to stuff that never gets released
Enraged Slith: no
Lazarus: Any changes actually being made?
dintiradan: What Nikki said. The current batch of players are used to the existing one.
Enraged Slith: let's just start with gold
Terrors Martyr: This is all a good start.
Enraged Slith: and then move onto tutorials, mail list, and changes
Terrors Martyr: slartucker has left this chat.
Rearranging the CSR is easy--bug Aran.
Niemand: The mailing list will take like 5 minutes to actually create.
Terrors Martyr: I was thinking of using riseup.net. 
Nikki: yeah, and you started the topic at SV, so thats under way, TM
Terrors Martyr: Alright.
Terrors Martyr: I am satisfied.
Terrors Martyr: --Shylock
Enraged Slith: Terrors Martyr has left this chat.
I would also like to talk about how to conduct the 24 hour contest
Kelandon: Dahak has left this chat.
Then start talking.
Enraged Slith: I'm psyched?
Nikki: alright, i'm off for reals.
Nikki: night guys.
Niemand: See you.
Nikki: *Saves and leaves*
tyranicus86: night Nikki
dintiradan: Nikki has left this chat.
G'night.
dintiradan: NO. I WAS TOO SLOW!
dintiradan: NOW HE'LL NEVER KNOW MY TRUE FEELINGS FOR HIM!
Enraged Slith: If we're working on expanding the number of players and designers, we should advertise this contest as something fun
Enraged Slith: twitter them
Niemand: I think that I can hopefully help with judging, especially if we have the added interest value of making the reviews in a more entertaining form.
Kelandon: I think that we should do something radical with the judging.
Kelandon: Namely, not have a winner.
tyranicus86: Pass/Fail! 
Kelandon: Nor even rank the scenarios.
Enraged Slith: I still think LP's would be fun
Niemand: How about we test the scenarios. . . on burning laptops! Which we juggle!
Kelandon: We should just write extended reviews, spoiler and non-spoiler versions.
Enraged Slith: plus, people wouldn't have to actually know anything about BoA to enjoy reading about them
Niemand: The LP idea does look fun.
dintiradan: Kel: Hmm. I like.
Kelandon: I'd actually participate if we did that.
dintiradan: And yes, LPs are fun. Themed ones are especially great.
Enraged Slith: If we did have a winner, we could give him a title or something
Niemand: Like a custom title on SW?
Enraged Slith: Maybe not that far
Enraged Slith: but maybe, if possible
dintiradan: 'Grand Poobah of Blades'
tyranicus86: Niemand, that would work if custom titles on SW weren't broken. 
Niemand: Because we would basically need *i to sign off on that, and there are . . . technical difficulties.
Kelandon: If we went with the extended-reviews thing, we wouldn't need rules about designers not also being judges.
Kelandon: It would just be a bunch of designers and a few players making a bunch of scenarios for each other and commenting on them.
Niemand: That would be a good point, I think.
dintiradan: Designers are allowed to be judges, if I recall correctly. They just can't judge their own works.
dintiradan: Could be wrong.
Niemand: Yeah, that never struck me as a very sensible way to run it, but it's what Laz said.
Kelandon: I don't even know. I haven't been following the rules.
Enraged Slith: If not some sort of LP, extended reviews is a definate yes
Kelandon: Sweet! I did something!
Niemand: Aside: Ideas for the build-a-scenario: Teach the player about the data script by having them create a weapon to fight the boss with. Have them cross a river by creating a bridge, and then editing it in.
Enraged Slith: Good idea.
Kelandon: I can totally see the dialog right now.
Kelandon: You come up to a sword on an altar (or in a box or something)
Kelandon: pick it up and see that it does 1-1 damage.
Kelandon: Message pops up that says you're going to get creamed if you don't edit the weapon.
Niemand: Ooh. design a creature to attach to your party. Creature definitions+joined npcs.
dintiradan: Oh, hey, so I've been misreading this tutorial idea all this time. That _is_ a good idea.
Enraged Slith: One very important question: do changes you make in scripts and the editor change every time you load a scenario?
Niemand: Also: Program a staircase to reach another level of a building.
Kelandon: You may have to leave the town or something.
Niemand: Yes.
Enraged Slith: okay, thank goodness
Enraged Slith: we could probably simulate that, if needed
Niemand: Clarification: There might be issues if you tried to switch which script was used, say for a creature or if you altered the memory cells.
Niemand: Otherwise you should be fine.
Niemand: Editing the sword would almost certainly require putting it down, and maybe leaving the town, but I bet we can handle it reasonably well.
Kelandon: This is a cool idea. I want to work on it.
Lazarus: I think the sword will change in your hands
Kelandon: I bet this could be accomplished collaboratively.
Lazarus: Editing terrain is the only problem I think.
Enraged Slith: something like an in-scenario "apply changes" button
Lazarus: Oh, and I'm open to any changes to how the 24 is conducted
dintiradan: Teleport you out of the town, then teleport you back in.
Niemand: I think you have is backwards lazarus. Terrain should change instantly when the game is reloaded.
Lazarus: I was truly kidding when I said I was doing this to beat down on you guys.
Niemand: Dinti: can't quite be done, but we can come close.
Lazarus: (Kind of.) 
Kelandon: We'd need a bunch of failsafes in case someone really screws up badly.
Niemand: That's a good point, and we'll need to think of a good way to handle it.
Lazarus: No, I'm fairly certain loaded towns won't change
Kelandon: I'm thinking of a special ability that resets flags and stuff.
Enraged Slith: If worst came to worst, we build a correct copy with each step completed.
failsafe: link to the forums
Lazarus: I remember playing an old version of a town in EoR with the new town's script
dintiradan: (Stuff to the effect of Niemand and Slithy's comments.)
Enraged Slith: 
Lazarus: It was funky.
Niemand: Then, if you totally screw things up, the directions say: 'Go this this webpage and download solution 7'.
Kelandon: Yeah, that works.
Enraged Slith: We make it impossible and lure people to our website
dintiradan: (Seriously people, stop sniping me.)
Kelandon: Maybe a version for each completed town or something.
Enraged Slith: assimilating them into our forces
Enraged Slith: the tutorial should be split up into tutorials
Niemand: that sounds about right. We'll see exactly how it needs to be done as the details crystallize.
Niemand: Split up how ES?
Enraged Slith: into scripting sections
dintiradan: yo dawg, i heard you liked tutorials, so i put a tutorial in your tutorial
Enraged Slith: how to define a section is up to debate
Kelandon: I put a tutorial in your MOM'S tutorial.
tyranicus86: Well, I'm going to go find something to eat. Have a good night, all
Enraged Slith: good night
dintiradan: G'night.
Niemand: Good night.
Niemand: tyranicus86 has left this chat.
So we do need a simple overarching plot. First: Who's the bad guy?
Kelandon: Rentar!
Enraged Slith: Jeff
Enraged Slith: Jeff is the enemy
Enraged Slith: I swear that he'd get a big kick out of that
dintiradan: Jeff, as a Crystal Soul and a consort to Rentar
Niemand: I'm thinking Rentar.
Kelandon: That was a really bad joke.
Kelandon: Don't take me seriously.
Enraged Slith: but if we used Jeff, it'd be like we were sticking it to the man
Niemand: Now, why must she be killed? (You know the answer to this one)
Enraged Slith: (Jeff is the man)
dintiradan: Garzahd is his uncle and Dorikas is his and Rentar's love child.
Enraged Slith: Make it a league of evil
Enraged Slith: run by Jeff
Enraged Slith: Rentar, Garzahd, and Dorikas will be there
Niemand: That does have promise.
Niemand: So why must we kill the league of evil?
dintiradan: (Seriously though, sticking it to The Man wouldn't be the best way to get his support down the road.)
Enraged Slith: I swear he'd love it
Enraged Slith: provided that it's in good taste
Niemand: (Oh yeah, I meant a league omitting Jeff.)
dintiradan: Well, maybe he wouldn't mind if we did something like give the Scorched Earth Party a cameo.
Enraged Slith: Jeff doesn't want a bunch of rebel designers running around, showing him up
Enraged Slith: that's the premise
Niemand: That sounds like a name for our putative league.
Enraged Slith: so he throws all his worst creations at you
Enraged Slith: i.e Rentar, Garzahd, Dorikas, etc.
Niemand: Perhaps the Scorched Earth party plans to blow up the moon? That's always a good one.
Enraged Slith: I prefer my idea, but I can see that I'm outnumbered on this one so far
dintiradan: By the way, how soon did Ephesos leave? He was the one who instigated this chat.
Enraged Slith: early
Niemand: He left after only about an hour. Said he might be back.
Niemand: Okay: Where is the lair of the evil doers?
Kelandon: Okay, so can we get some halfway decent evildoers first?
Enraged Slith: what's one of the biggest mysteries in Jeff's games?
Lazarus: Perhaps more importantly we should decide what tasks we want to demonstrate?
Lazarus: And make a plot that covers all of them.
Kelandon: Basic scenario tasks.
Kelandon: Making items.
dintiradan: Terrain editing - build a bridge across the chasm to get to their fortress.
Kelandon: Editing dialogue.
Niemand: Draw terrain.
Enraged Slith: Let's start with drawing terrain and making/placing items
Niemand: Dinti: I think we need that lesson to happen early.
Enraged Slith: get people familar with the physical editor
Enraged Slith: laying down states
Lazarus: Ok, for drawing we have terrains, floors, and heights
Enraged Slith: next we tackle the hardest part of scripting: flow/ordering
Niemand: drawing a bridge should probably be to get out of the starting town.
dintiradan: (Assuming all the action happens in the fortress)
Lazarus: There should be an obstacle for each. Perhaps some fight could involve dumping a baddie in lava or something.
Niemand: ES: Isn't that jumping into the deep end?
Enraged Slith: I don't know
Enraged Slith: I recall that being the hardest obstacle for me
Enraged Slith: I started with physical editor stuff, then item making, then dialogue, then simple scripts
Niemand: As Kel says, we do need to cover dialogue. That probably means a simple friendly town.
Enraged Slith: agreed
Lazarus: Terrain script. Put a script on a door that doesn't have one
Lazarus: The baddies took off the script to make their fortress impenetrable. 
Enraged Slith: 
Kelandon: Heh.
Niemand: It can also be there that they create an NPC to join their party.
dintiradan: (Not in any particular order) Creature placement - Given an impossible fight, you need to add a few high level creatures and make them fight for you.
Niemand: Laz: Good one.
dintiradan: One of the dialog tasks should teach you how quests work.
dintiradan: Special items need to be included somewhere.
Enraged Slith: dintiradan, we should make that a more ambiguous obstacle
Niemand: What about town entrance lesson? Make it point to the atrium instead of straight to a dungeon or something.
Kelandon: One of the tricks that we could use a fair bit is to have good code in existence but commented out.
dintiradan: Or skeleton code at the very least.
Kelandon: That's how we could have dialogue done, anyway.
dintiradan: I used to hate skeleton code, but now I see its use.
Kelandon: They don't have to write the dialogue. They just have to uncomment the text and design states/nodes to make it appear in-game.
Niemand: What coing principles do we need to cover? Definitely the uses of SDFs and script variables.
Niemand: *coding, not coing
Enraged Slith: if we don't make Jeff the villain (which I prefer and I'd think he'd like), we need to, at least, make him a protagonist
Niemand: Branching and loops certainly.
Niemand: maybe his creations have gotten out of hand?
Lazarus: Yes, flags. Add a flag when the boss dies so everyone will remember what you did
Kelandon: Jeff is the Bob!
Enraged Slith: I don't know where to start with this, but one of the most difficult things about code is just how to organize it
Enraged Slith: how is it set up, how does it work
Niemand: Heh. We could make them kill the boss twice because the flag isn't set the first time.
Lazarus: I think conditionals, flags, loops should come last
Niemand: Agreed.
Enraged Slith: Once it clicks, one takes this principle for granted
Kelandon: NIemand: totally.
Niemand: Should we even try to cover creature scripting? I love doing it, but a lot of people argue that it's the hardest to get the grasp of.
Kelandon: Maybe something really simple.
Lazarus: Too hard imo
Enraged Slith: to make them understand flags, we should have them put something in the start state that will keep playing until they flag it
Kelandon: Creature has a kill_char call that you have to delete in order to beat the baddie.
Enraged Slith: or make a message that says: put an sdf on this or it wont stop playing
Kelandon: Yeah, I was figuring that flags would happen slowly.
dintiradan: RE: Creature scripts: Do we want this tutorial to teach them everything about scenario design, or just how to make a bare bones scenario?
Kelandon: First you just get them to uncomment something that makes a message only play once.
Kelandon: Then you get them to do it themselves.
dintiradan: If it's the latter, teaching them how the kill state works should be good enough.
Kelandon: I was thinking bare bones plus.
Niemand: What about having the boss have a damgerous scripted ability, which targets the party. Have the player delibeerately alter it to target the boss's minions instead.
Kelandon: Like, here's what you need to know to make a bare bones scenario, and here are some hints at other things to consider.
Enraged Slith: I agree with the barebones stuff
Niemand: True, we should keep that in mind.
Enraged Slith: once they're interested, they can always get help from us
Lazarus: I like Kel's idea for the creature script, but it doesn't even have to be something deadly. Just a message_dialog in the start state that becomes way too fucking annoying without removing it
dintiradan: Have the scenario itself tell players how to do the bare bones stuff, but include an extra readme file that tells them how to do the advanced stuff.
Enraged Slith: I couldn't imagine breaking creature scripting down into something easily explainable
Enraged Slith: it's taken me a couple years just to get a remote grasp of how it works
Kelandon: I don't know what's so hard about creature scripting.
Lazarus: Creature scripts are hard when you're tying to make them fight and shit
Niemand: I think we shouldn't try to do anything more complicated than an action when the creature dies.
Enraged Slith: what Laz said
Lazarus: But just looking at the pieces of it and recognizing that the start_state is called every turn is important
Enraged Slith: I'm close to finishing that rogue script, which alters behavior
Lazarus: Actually that's a lesson in itself. How the states work
Enraged Slith: it actually works!
Lazarus: Start/init etc.
Niemand: 5/3/09
Cool ES. Yeah, we do need to do that Laz.
Kelandon: Probably to be done with towns first.
Niemand: What could we have the player do simply with those?
Niemand: Definitely with town scripts.
Kelandon: Maybe name some characters or something.
Enraged Slith: don't allow the player to exit a town via EXIT_STATE
Lazarus: Uh, when you enter the final base there's something in the init state that summons an army
Niemand: That was my thought as well for the INIT_STATE.
Lazarus: So you enter and get a message like "This doesn't look so good..." and have to reenter with out that code
Niemand: Although we could do that too.
Kelandon: And maybe change it to making your own invisible allies appear!
Niemand: What about a town script START_STATE?
Enraged Slith: I'm still up for an annoying message_dialog
Niemand: It should tell you again and again about an anoying sound the party hears or something.
dintiradan: Just thinking - one of the biggest challenges with this project is having the luser edit the scenario code, without breaking the stuff we need to keep in. We have to make sure that whenever we ask the user to change the way a state works, none of _our_ logic should be in that state.
Niemand: "You hear water dripping in the distance"
dintiradan: (Which is easier said than done.)
Lazarus: That's what set state continue is for
Kelandon: Maybe recommend that the user back up the script all the freakin' time.
Niemand: Dinti: What about "//DO NOT EDIT BELOW THIS LINE"
Kelandon: Or that. 
Lazarus: Yes, what Kel said. All the states that include edit code go on top
Niemand: "//INSERT LESSON 8 HERE"
Lazarus: So they don't have to dig through. The guts are below, and they just point to the other nodes
Enraged Slith: and we can always include plenty of comments in the script
Niemand: I think thats a good way to do it.
Niemand: Definitely. Every aspect of the script should contain copious documentation.
Lazarus: The biggest obstacle I see is going back and forth between editor and game without making it a hassle
Lazarus: Or destroying the fun aspect
dintiradan: Designing a scenario == destroying the fun aspect.
dintiradan: At least for me.
Niemand: I fear there's not too much we can do there.
Kelandon: Having 'em both open in windows should be okay.
Lazarus: I think some sort of chime, and a note in the text screen should tell the player to save and go do some editing
Enraged Slith: good idea
Lazarus: Like not saving int he right spot would be tres annoying.
Niemand: The best way as I see it is to have any instructions which come with the scenario be as fun to read through as possible.
Enraged Slith: screenshots
Enraged Slith: picturebook instructions
Niemand: What about dialogs like: "Please save now and go to section 12 of the instructions"?
Niemand: ES: You're doing the illustrations. Make them like in KTD.
dintiradan: Seconded.
Lazarus: That would be the more overt way, but that destroys any image that its a normal scenario with holes in it
Niemand: (In addition to screenshots, of course)
Enraged Slith: well, I was thinking something along the lines of the actual in game graphics and editor graphics
Lazarus: I kind of like the idea of having a sound or something to cue them, but that might just lead to confusion
Kelandon: Maybe the AAAAAAHHHH sound.
Niemand: We could always have one of our fourth wall breaking dialogs come with a certain sound, like the magical chiming.
dintiradan: I don't think we could possibly avoid breaking the fourth wall. An indicator that we are would be a good idea, though.
dintiradan: Or would the entire scenario be breaking the fourth wall.
Kelandon: I was figuring that the whole scenario would be breaking the fourth wall.
Niemand: That was kind of my thought. Or that said wall would only be intact for short periods.
Enraged Slith: The main villain could be leading the player along by trying to lead them away (like in KTD)
Enraged Slith: though that might get old fast...
Lazarus: Oh, and re entering towns is another pain
dintiradan: I was under the impression that each character would be aware that they're in the game. "While you're it, would you mind bumping my charisma?"
Enraged Slith: we could mix it up
Lazarus: Like my idea with the door script doesn't work without re entering.
Enraged Slith: re-entering towns could be as simple as a special ability
Enraged Slith: called: apply changes
Niemand: For teaching dialogue: an NPC has the wrong nodes linked together and gives useless advice. Link the correct nodes to get the right advice.
Kelandon: Ah. I like that.
Niemand: ES: Off the top of my head I can't think how that would work. We need the game to reload scripts.
Enraged Slith: Provided good instruction, that would work
Lazarus: Well there are some messy ways.
Kelandon: I was thinking of having the player add the needed calls (begintalknode, state, etc.) to text1 and text2 already present to teach how to make the nodes in the first place
Kelandon: but linking states is good practice for the harder parts of dialogue.
Lazarus: Basically to teleport them to a dark spot in the corner of town, and make them take a step that teleports them back to where they truly loaded from
Niemand: We could start with linking, then do a second exercise on composing nodes themselves, if we wanted.
Kelandon: Maybe an excess END action that the player needs to delete.
Lazarus: The second teleport would be a move_to_new_town
Niemand: That's what I was thinking, laz.
Niemand: It's not too pretty, but sometimes it's necessary/
Kelandon: Laz and Slith: that's probably all too complicated. Just make small towns that are easy to walk out of.
Lazarus: It requires a corner of town that's ringed in specials for that task
Niemand: Also: You can reload the town by moving the party into that same town. This is how BoR gets away with only one town.
Lazarus: Yeah, but that can't be done from teh load state
Lazarus: Lets not talk about this, it can be done somehow, I know that. 
Niemand: I was thinking like this: You walk up to a door. You find it has no script.
Niemand: The instructions tell you how to put the script in.
Niemand: Then, next to the door, there's a sort of a load point.
Enraged Slith: so who is the lovable guy who instructs our new hero?
Niemand: You step on it, and it send you to the same spot, reloading the town.
Lazarus: Ok, I like that.
Kelandon: Yeah, that's good.
Lazarus: And the narrator should be somehow in the story
Lazarus: Like some wizard or something guiding you.
Enraged Slith: do you want to make this serious or silly?
Kelandon: Definitely silly.
Lazarus: Silly, but not KtD silly
Enraged Slith: 
Niemand: It can't be all that serious, so I vote for mildly silly.
Enraged Slith: Okay, well I'm voting for overly exaggerated characters
Lazarus: Like Cave of no Return silly
Enraged Slith: was that redundant?
Kelandon: I say we get a first town made with a first lesson in it, and then we work from there.
dintiradan: A parody of the fairy from Zelda, perhaps?
dintiradan: Navi?
Enraged Slith: here's the thing
dintiradan: (As the narrator or guide)
Enraged Slith: we can't make the narrator annoying
Niemand: Indeed not.
Enraged Slith: I think we should have different narrators for different parts
Enraged Slith: we can make one of them annoying
Enraged Slith: but I think another should be a very serious drill sergeant type guy
Kelandon: wtf
Niemand: I was thinking of the narrator being us. After all, we're the ones doing the guiding, helping out a budding new designer.
Kelandon: Yeah.
Enraged Slith: I think it would be more fun if the narrators were characters in the story, but if that's how you guys want it
Kelandon: We can go all TM-style and make ourselves characters in the story if we want.
dintiradan: Seems gratuitous to me, I'm with Slithy. But hey, if that's what everyone else wants..
Lazarus: I like the character in the story idea, but the character can somehow be outside the world. Like Kel said, almost a cameo
Kelandon: If so, I get to be the confused wizard who forgets what he's saying and you have to fix my states. 
dintiradan: If someone really wants, they can put in a thinly veiled cameo.
Niemand: To go back to an old point: what will be the tasks for which the player must draw floors and heights?
Lazarus: Somehow he's obviously not bounded by the scenario like a normal character, and he smashes the 4th wall like its his job
dintiradan: If so, I get to be the guide who's secretly working for the enemies. 
Kelandon: Niemand: Maybe you have to get up a cliff and must design hills to make it so.
Niemand: Okay, that combines terrains and heights.
Lazarus: Hills should be there
Enraged Slith: yeah, put a door up on a ledge
Lazarus: So first you need to scale a small height, so you build hills
Lazarus: Then a massive chasm shows up, and instead you just level it out using heights
Niemand: Heh. That way you also get that really funny look of many hills at the same height.
Enraged Slith: stairs are easier than hills
Niemand: Stairs and hills are the same. They just have different graphics. 
Enraged Slith: hills involve corners
Lazarus: Stairs have no corner pieces
Enraged Slith: stairs are also easier to visualize, in my opinion
Lazarus: And its obvious which way stairs go. (This was a source of problem for me when I first started)
Lazarus: Sniped again
Kelandon: I'm thinking that's a good second or third lesson.
Enraged Slith: and, for the love of God, make sure to tell them to turn auto hills off
Niemand: True. If we provide the terrain it's not a big deal, but let's do stairs.
Lazarus: Heh
Niemand: Yes. Turning off auto hills will be imprortant
Kelandon: I figure the first lesson should be editing town scripts, maybe dialog boxes or something.
dintiradan: (Auto hills ain't that bad, if it's the first thing you do when building a town. Afterwards, yes, turn it off.)
Niemand: I was thinking like this: First the player much reach the friendly town.
Niemand: On the way there, he learns about basic editor use, drawing terrains, etc.
Niemand: Once at the town, he learns about placing terrain script,s editing dialogue, and script states.
dintiradan: Painting terrain would be easier conceptually than editing a terrain script, in my opinion. So I'm with Niemand.
Niemand: Maybe then there's a detour to get a weapon and a helper, leading to item and creature definitions.
Kelandon: Okay.
dintiradan: But yes, the simplist script stuff should be done early on.
Niemand: Then comes the boss' lair, with more scripting lessons and so forth.
dintiradan: Special rectangles with one time effects and the like.
Lazarus: OK, so first is an obstacle course thats solved by redrawing
Niemand: Those should likely happen somewhere in the middle.
Niemand: Laz: exactly.
Lazarus: Dangerous floors, heights, etc.
Enraged Slith: As an overall note, let's include a way to jump to certain sections of a scenario.
Lazarus: Oh, idea for editing floor properties. Have some sort of baddie that keeps recreating lava, so you can't just draw it away. You have to edit it so lava is no longer "hot" 
Niemand: Good thought.
Niemand: What will we have the player draw floors for in the first phase?
Lazarus: Just lava I guess
Lazarus: I mean we have dangerous floors, and impassable floors
Lazarus: Redrawing dangerous floors is more fun imo, since everything else is based on impassable
Niemand: What about a ton of swamps that would otherwise diesease you to death?
Lazarus: That works.
Lazarus: Floors would be a good place to use the "fill" drawing option
Niemand: Ah, yes.
Enraged Slith: is anyone recording all this?
Niemand: I am.
Enraged Slith: okay
Enraged Slith: I've got to go, I've been here way too long already 
Niemand: I'm both making a summary of our plan, and i am _so_saving this chat.
Enraged Slith: good luck everyone
Enraged Slith: get some sleep
Niemand: Enraged Slith has left this chat.
See you later.
Kelandon: So here's the thing.
Kelandon: We need to get started on this.
Kelandon: I feel like it would be easy to collaborate on this, but in pieces.
Kelandon: So someone needs to make the first lesson.
Lazarus: Yes, I'd be all for drawing up the first town/obstacle course
Lazarus: Oh, the obstacle course totally shouldn't be outside
Niemand: Okay, Laz would like to do what I'm labeling 'Stage 1'.
Lazarus: And this isn't just my standard outdoors bias. They fucking suck for refreshing terrain. 
dintiradan: You have to have a starting town anyway, so yeah.
Kelandon: I'd like Stage 2.
Niemand: I agree. I like outdoors, but we should avoid doing editing there.
Niemand: Kel wants to do the friendly town.
Niemand: I wouldn't half mind doing the final stage, the boss' fortress.
Lazarus: OK, well what's the starting town? We need to introduce the quest, and we need to introduce a narrator
Lazarus: I was thinking just have a wizard send you out on some errand.
Lazarus: Like you're his apprentice or something. And he'd be the one communicating to you to guide you
Niemand: At that point the party mainly need to reach the town, so give them a reason to do that.
Kelandon: He's summoning you to the town, which is where he is.
Niemand: Sounds good to me.
Lazarus: OK, so there's a wizard. He is the narrator.
Lazarus: You start at point x. We don't know why you're there, it doesn't matter. He calls you to point y, and directs you there
Lazarus: During stage two the party should be told about the main quest and be collecting resources.
Point y being his hut? It makes a ncie first town, only one NPC and small.
Kelandon: What's Stage 3 again?
Niemand: How will we break up the stuff between the friendly town and boss' lair?
Niemand: Kel: That's not yet defined.
Lazarus: Blackmailing Jeff. No wait, that's a stage for a different plan.
Kelandon: Step 3: Profit.
Lazarus: Outdoors I guess.
Niemand: We could have 3 be getting a sword and doing object definitions.
Kelandon: You could do a mini-lesson on outdoors.
Kelandon: And why it sucks.
dintiradan: I think it's important that we don't dump half a dozen tasks on the player at once. The player should only have one task on the todo list at a time.
Niemand: Then 4 is some outdoors, then 5 is the lair.
Kelandon: Yeah, sounds good.
Lazarus: The wizard's hut would be ina simple outdoors section along with a shrine or whatever for the item you're finding, and the baddie's lair
dintiradan: No "make a weapon, change some dialog, and paint terrain". Give them an order.
Niemand: Agreed Dinti. Just 'fix this so you can go on'.
Lazarus: Some menial tasks could be done in the wizard's hut.
Niemand: What would be in te outdoors lessons? Adding a town entrance, surely.
Lazarus: A-la Apology. But use scripting to save yourself the pain in the ass.
Kelandon: Heh.
dintiradan: Should we do wandering monsters?
Kelandon: That could be how you teach SDFs.
Kelandon: "Either step on these runes 100 times, or just figure out how to set the flag to 100."
Lazarus: Oh, the wizard casted silence on himself, you need to fix his dialog script.
Niemand: We could do we want to caver that material in stage 1?
Lazarus: I thought stage one would be strictly drawing
Niemand: As did I.
Kelandon: I thought we were talking about the hut in Stage 2.
Lazarus: I think these stages should be as cohesive as possible. Like we should be doing one sort of task for a while.
Niemand: In town was where the player was to be introduced to scripts.
Lazarus: They shouldnt be opening and closing word docs
Lazarus: Yes, precisely. The wizard's hut, stage 2.
Niemand: Oh. My list said stage two was th elocal town.
Lazarus: He's silenced, so you fix his dialog script. His house is a shithole, so you patch it up using scripts or something, I don't know.
Kelandon: Heh.
Niemand: so we could do dialogue, terrain scripts, and simple town script states.
Kelandon: I'll figure it out.
Lazarus: Yeah, I think we can give the designer for each "stage" creative license for how to teach each task
Lazarus: But we need to have a list of what is taught in each stage
Niemand: Dinti: do you want to build a section? We still have some fuzziness in stages 3-4ish.
Lazarus: Or else it's not going to be logical, and it's going to be hard for the player to follow.
dintiradan: Yes, I'm clearly an asset with the mass of experience I bring to this chat.
Lazarus: Okay stage 1: drawing in the editor and closely related tasks.
Oh, and stage 1 is going to take like 10 minutes, so I can do a later stage also
dintiradan: If you guys need me for something, I can do it.
Lazarus: It's like an intro message and some drawing.
Kelandon: Be thorough though.
Niemand: And lots of hand holding dialog boxes to tell the player what's going on and what to do next. Simple, but a little tedious.
Kelandon: You could include instructions on walls and stuff.
Kelandon: Maybe on making halfway decent terrain, too.
Kelandon: I'd like that tutorial. 
Niemand: Kel, you already wanted to do the town, and introduction to simple scripts.
Lazarus: Heh. Something is so offensive to the senses that you have to fix it before you can progress
dintiradan: "Oh no! This dungeon is all dark tiles! You can't see the doors! You need to change that." 
Kelandon: Niemand: I meant that I'd like to RECEIVE that tutorial.
Lazarus: That would be a feat. A script that can recognize prettiness and refuse to let you pass until you fix it. 
Kelandon: Hey, you check the ground for frills and block_entry until there are enough. 
Niemand: According to my list, stage 2 consists of editing a town's INIT_STATE, placing a terrain script, tweaking a creature's memory ceels, and fixing a dialogue script.
Kelandon: Yep.
Kelandon: And probably a little bit with a message_dialog or something.
Niemand: Also in stage 2: script a simple stairway.
Niemand: Good point message dialogs are a designer's best friend.
Lazarus: "Teleporter is broken"
Kelandon: "Clean my attic, whippersnapper!" "There are no stairs." "Then make some, lazy bones!"
Lazarus: Heh.
Niemand: "i try to walk up the stairs, but I never get to the attic!"
dintiradan: ^ Yes.
Niemand: Okay, we've got:
Niemand: Stage 2: The friendly town
place a door script
script a stairway
edit a town's INIT_STATE to set character names.
edit a town's START_STATE to remove an annoying repeating message
using message_dialog
fix a dialogue script
Niemand: Ater stage 2, things are not yet nailed down.
Niemand: We know we want to cover object definitions (items and creatures)
Kelandon: When the wizard's dialogue is eventually fixed, he sends you off to fetch a sword to help you fight the baddies and get a friend who will continue to instruct you.
Kelandon: You wander off a little ways and get the sword, but it's terrible and you have to fix its definitions.
Niemand: Sounds good. What else goes here?
dintiradan: Makes sense to set Stage 3 in in the enemy's dungeon (make an enemy weaker, give yourself a powerful sword).
Niemand: I was thinking: stage 3: get tools to beat bad guy
Niemand: Stage 4: beat bad guy
dintiradan: Okay, so where do we place creature definitions in?
dintiradan: 3 or 4?
Niemand: 3 would cover at least item and creature defs, hopefully terrains and floors as well.
Kelandon: Maybe small intermediate bad guy along the way. So you weaken the enemy in Stage 3, and you actually muck with a creature script in Stage 4.
Niemand: creature defs would be for the helper. He starts out as beggar, far too puny to help you.
Niemand: So you make a better creature type, and switch him to that.
Kelandon: Or that. Yeah.
Niemand: Still, we could introduce some fighting in stage 3.
Niemand: You know, build up to the climax.
dintiradan: More fun to buff a character with cool abilities than to weaken a preexisting one.
dintiradan: Yeah, I like the Super BeggerMan idea.
Niemand: So Dinti, do you want stage 3?
dintiradan: Sure.
Niemand: So far:
Niemand: Stage 3: the preparation
learning about object definitions.
forge a weapon to kill the boss
design a creature -> power up a beggar until he's a stupendous fighter
attach an npc to the party
an enemy keeps placing lava, so edit the properties of lava to make it safe to walk on
Lazarus: I like the idea of having the beggar say, in a pit with some baddie
Lazarus: And have to jack him up so he can beat it. It's fun to watch the overpowered monster you made crush someone
Lazarus: And its a way to measure if they actually did the task.
Niemand: If the beggar dies, make them go tweak the script, then reset time and make it ahppen over. 
dintiradan: Yeah, the point is to get the begger to fight the baddie. Also, we don't want the baddie to accidently kill the PC, so we make it a melee fighter.
Kelandon: And the reset button can just spawn the beggar again.
Lazarus: Yeah, or he just runs away.
Niemand: I like a time loop, myself. Those are a good cliche.
Lazarus: Like you "tell him to go at it again, and reassure him he's stronger now"
Lazarus: That sort of thing.
Niemand: Anyway, that can be Dinti's call.
Lazarus: Yes, but jack up a monster so it crushes another.
Kelandon: So that covers creatures, items, floors.
Lazarus: And then add him to the party.
Niemand: Next then, I think we have: Stage 4: the showdown
Niemand: Topics so far:
set a flag to make the boss stay dead
nerf the boss' dangerous scripted ability
setting town entrance points?
Kelandon: Yes.
Kelandon: I'm still thinking about making your invisible allies visible.
Lazarus: Hidden groups
Niemand: Oh, duh. revealing hidden groups.
Lazarus: Are incredibly useful, and very intuitive
Lazarus: Easy to teach.
Niemand: What else should a new designer know before we turn him loose on the world?
Kelandon: I'm searching my brain for anything else.
Kelandon: Maybe I should be searching my scripts instead. 
Niemand: Adding a boat?
Kelandon: Something about quests, maybe?
dintiradan: Gah. When will we talk about intro text? Never, probably.
Niemand: Maybe you need to add the call to complete the quest to kill the badguy.
Kelandon: Yeah, something like that.
Niemand: Intro text, I fear doesn't fit in well. We should probably just put in a descriptive one, and leave it at that.
Kelandon: Dinti: How hard is intro text, really?
Kelandon: Huh. Shops.
dintiradan: I guess.
Niemand: Of course, a couple of paragraphs of said intro text could describe what an intor text is and how to set it up.
Niemand: Oh, yeah shops. Definitely Kel's section.
Kelandon: The weird thing is that shops are normally set up at the very beginning of the scenario.
Kelandon: Slightly awkward.
Niemand: How aout an item that can only be bought after you talk to someone.
Kelandon: Okay, I think I've got it.
Niemand: The instructions could then just point out where to put the call if you want the item to be available all along.
Kelandon: Yeah.
Kelandon: Do we have SDFs and variables in there anywhere?
Niemand: SDFs are in my section at least.
Niemand: (make the boss stay dead)
Kelandon: Oh right.
Niemand: Variables ought to go there too I think; how to cover them simply?
Kelandon: Maybe as part of a while call somewhere.
Kelandon: That's about 90% of what I use them for.
Niemand: Good thought, I do need to do loops and branches.
Kelandon: Other than string variables.
Kelandon: And I mostly use string variables to address the party.
Niemand: Tangential point: how shall we refer to this project? (i need to title my notes file.)
dintiradan: Edit Them Dead
Kelandon: Heh.
Niemand: I love it.
Kelandon: It's a working title, at least.
dintiradan: ... I've got to stop making off-the-cuff remarks like that.
Niemand: Sure, we can always name the scenario something else for release.
Niemand: But ETD is too good a working title to pass up.
Kelandon: tyranicus86 has joined this chat.
For sure.
tyranicus86: Good lord. You people are still at it?
Kelandon: We have just planned out the greatest scenario ever.
Kelandon: Edit Them Dead.
tyranicus86: lol
Niemand: It's gonna be fun to write, that's for sure.
Lazarus: Quest assignment and rewards need to be included
Lazarus: Reward_give is like the reason people start designing. 
Kelandon: We had quest completion in Stage 4.
Kelandon: I imagine rewards could be associated with that.
Lazarus: Ok. Quest assignment could go in the dialog part
Lazarus: Or left out
Niemand: Stage 3 is a little sparse, but they don't really have anything to do with object definitions.
Lazarus: Something t hat needs to be done in the code section could be included
Kelandon: Yeah.
Kelandon: I think that makes sense.
Lazarus: Okay, stage 2 it is.
Okay, Kel definitely has the hardest part
Lazarus: And I have the easiest, so if you need a break you can pass it off to me, or any of the lazy bums who went to sleep early and weren't assigned jobs. 
Niemand: Parts 2 and 4 have about the same number of steps, but I don't think we should let them balloon too much more.
Lazarus: Oh, character of the wizard.
Lazarus: I'll be the first one to introduce him sort of, how does he act?
dintiradan: Yeah, someone _will_ be posting a thread on this, so other people can help out too, right?
dintiradan: Or do we want a small team on this?
Kelandon: I figure the four of us are plenty to get the initial design done, and then the others can comment as needed.
Niemand: I'm collecting email address for the core people involved right now, but I wouldn't mind sharing this with others while we work.
Kelandon: I mean, we could have them comment on the plans as we go.
dintiradan: Wizard: Hmm. Either a cantankerous "get off my lawn" type, or an absent-minded professor type.
Lazarus: The wizard = 90% of your interaction, so I think we all need to agree how he's going to talk.
Lazarus: That seems to be the two stereotypes available to us
Lazarus: tyranicus86 has left this chat.
"Get off my lawn" contrasted with "help me and do everything for me" makes for interesting dialog. 
Kelandon: Yeah, I think he should sort of be both. 
Niemand: Oragnizational notes: Laz, can you still be reached at [address redacted]?
Lazarus: Yes.
Niemand: And Kel: Is it still [address redacted]?
Kelandon: Yep.
Niemand: tyranicus86 has joined this chat.
I'm assuming ES is still [address redacted], but I don't think I have any contact info for Dinti.
Kelandon: Just yell loudly.
dintiradan: ES's e-mail sounds familiar, if it doesn't work I should have it saved somewhere.
dintiradan: [address redacted] - I have a few others (Yahoo, ermarian), but they all forward there.
Lazarus: ES is [address redacted] last i checked
Niemand: Great. I'll attach my notes to an email to everyone when we decide to knock off work, then.
Lazarus: Which was a while ago. He started college since, so it might change
Kelandon: As far as I'm concerned, my deadline for my section is a week from today.
Kelandon: I want to have something more or less finished by the end of the day next Saturday.
Lazarus: I'll try to have mine done asap, for people to critique and such. I want to have an example for how we're going to do things
Niemand: Okay. I fear that my next week is going to be a hellish semester end, but I'll try to keep working as quickly as possible.
Lazarus: Like the standard format of how we're going to prompt them to make changes.
Niemand: Indeed. We should pick out a nice graphic for the reload points also.
tyranicus86: Hey, is SW down for you guys?
Kelandon: It was a bit ago.
Kelandon: Might still be.
dintiradan: Same as Kel.
Kelandon: Yep. Still down.
Niemand: Yep, so it is.
Niemand: For the reload points: how about http://blades.ermarian.net/graphic/force-patterns
Kelandon: Good by me.
Niemand: Laz: You'll want to introduce the player to these in your bit, I think.
Niemand: For the instructions, shall we go with HTML documents? All of us should be able to work easily with those (we all run websites, after all) and we can have stuff like images and links.
Kelandon: Hrm.
dintiradan: Yes, easier than PDFs. Word documents are out.
Ephesos: Ephesos has joined this chat.
Whoah. People are still here?
Kelandon: Seems fine to me.
dintiradan: Unless Macs come with software to read .doc files.
dintiradan: Hey Eph.
Niemand: Hey again, Eph
Kelandon: TextEdit does, I think.
tyranicus86: Dinti, Macs can read .doc
Niemand: It does.
Ephesos: I'm pretty sure Pages can read them too.
tyranicus86: Yes, it can
Niemand: But .doc sucks.
Ephesos: Also, why on earth are the boards down this time?
Niemand: No clue.
Kelandon: No idea here either.
Lazarus: html works.
Ephesos: Awesome.
Kelandon: I should probably figure out how to use any of the control panel options on the boards, but I haven't looked at them since the switch.
tyranicus86: Diki banned a spmbot about half an hour before they went down. not sure if that has anything to do with it
Niemand: They seem to mostly be good ways to shoot everyone in the foot, these days.
Ephesos: Probably not.
Ephesos: Let's see if I can turn everyone green again! 
Niemand: The banning was a couple of hours before the outage. I doubt it.
Ephesos: ...control panel gets a 500 error too. No dice.
Lazarus: Am I the only non mod in here?
Lazarus: I feel left out. But oddly privileged to be spying on you. 
Kelandon: I've lost track of who's a mod and who isn't.
Ephesos: You say that like it matters, Laz.
dintiradan: Non mod here too.
Kelandon: We've been handing modships out like lollipops.
Niemand: Pretty much.
Niemand: I can't figure out what *i thought he needed me for.
Ephesos: All hands on deck sort of thing, I guess.
tyranicus86: Power! Bwahahaha
Ephesos: Bwahahahahaha!
tyranicus86: I got to use my topic lock picture today
tyranicus86: First time in a very long time
Kelandon: You know, most of us being mods gives new meaning to Edit Them Dead.
tyranicus86: 
Niemand: My CRT makes a little 'fizz' sound when I switch to the SW window in my browser, as it changes nearly every pixel to black. Sigh.
Ephesos: So yeah... did I miss anything relevant to Blades in my absence?
Kelandon: Only the greatest scenario EVAR!
Niemand: We have a most awesome scenario plan.
tyranicus86: Niemand, black?
tyranicus86: The ISE page is white for me
Niemand: Tyran: The UBB's CSS seems to interact oddly with WebKit's error page.
Lazarus: It's going to be the greatest collaboration ever
Ephesos: Oh, do tell?
Lazarus: Which isn't saying much. It seriously might be. 
tyranicus86: That's odd. I'm using Safari, and it's white for me
Kelandon: We're going to make a very, very broken scenario.
tyranicus86: Although, I'm using Safari 4, so that might have something to do with it
Niemand: I'm using a really modded copy of safari 3, so that might also be it.
Ephesos: Awesome!
Ephesos: And is that the one we'll pester Jeff to include with Blades?
Kelandon: Of course!
Kelandon: It's a brilliant plan that can't fail, right?
Niemand: it's like we've already succeeded!
Ephesos: Of course!
Ephesos: Mwahahahahahahahahaha!
dintiradan: Anyway, I'm heading off for a shower and then bed.
Niemand: Okay Dinti.
dintiradan: Best brainstorming Blades chat I've ever sat in, by the way.
Kelandon: For sure!
Niemand: This was quite cool.
Niemand: Do we want to write up a hype thread now, or wait until we have some actual work done?
Ephesos: ...wait, no. Not cool.
Ephesos: What did I miss?
Kelandon: May as well wait until we have something to show for it all.
Niemand: Okay, I'll recap.
Kelandon: dintiradan has left this chat.
Keep it a monumental secret.
Kelandon: Wait, no!
Niemand: No recap?
Kelandon: Keep Eph in the dark! It's funnier that way! 
Ephesos: No, not cool!
Ephesos: Lame!
Kelandon: Heh.
Niemand: It is funny. . . mean, but funny. . .
Ephesos: I call bullshit!
Ephesos: I'm the one who called the damn chat! 
Kelandon: Your fault for bailing almost immediately after calling it. 
Niemand: Can we leak enough info to baffle him?
Kelandon: Even better.
Ephesos: What? Nonsense!
Niemand: The beggar fighting will definitely be awesome.
Ephesos: I left shortly after you arrived, Kel.
Ephesos: There was like an hour and a half of chat before you showed up.
Kelandon: Niemand: I agree..
tyranicus86: SW is baclk
tyranicus86: *back
Niemand: Also, cleaning the attic should be an interesting diversion.
Kelandon: The whole stairs gag altogether should be great.
Niemand: I think so.
Lazarus: I agree with Niemand. The hobo battle will be epic
Kelandon: Especially by the end.
Ephesos: Wait, why are we letting the new TM topic live?
Niemand: I wish I could see the look on the player's face when he learns why to use SDFs.
Ephesos: (By the way, you all suck.)
Lazarus: Yes, the end is the entire point.
tyranicus86: Eph, good question
Kelandon: Because if you kill it it will just become another undead TM topic?
Ephesos: (goes off to kill the topic... I have a new lock picture anyway)
tyranicus86: A pretty lock picture?
Ephesos: Of course.
Lazarus: Which TM topic?
Ephesos: First, I should at least link to the old TM topic.
Lazarus: Like one TM made?
Niemand: No, someone else asking about him.
Lazarus: Oh.
Lazarus: How do people even hear about him to ask?
Lazarus: And what is there to explain really?
Ephesos: Yay new lock picture.
Niemand: Not much. "He made a lot of scenarios. He did dumb stuff. He got Banned. "
Ephesos: Wow. Top four topics are locked. 
Kelandon: That lock picture is flowery.
Ephesos: Yup.
Kelandon: It does not really suggest "locked topic" to me.
Niemand: How about: http://www.pachd.com/free-images/misc-images/chain-lock-01.jpg
Ephesos: Eh, too obvious.
Lazarus: THAT is undoubtedly a lock
Ephesos: ...so, about that scenario? 
Lazarus: Yes, the scenario certainly contains locks
Lazarus: Unfinished locks, if you would
tyranicus86: brb
Kelandon: tyranicus86 has left this chat.
It's gotta be the most original way to open a door that anyone's ever put in a scenario.
Kelandon: Have any other collaborations involved more than two people?
Kelandon: Or is this the first?
Lazarus: Hmm.
Niemand: Project Dikiyoba did, but it folded because our plan was too vague.
Lazarus: Yes. I think this one is more promising
Lazarus: We can draw strength from knowing that our work is SAVING BLADES
Kelandon: Yes.
Kelandon: This is certainly true.
Niemand: I hope that future generations will look to this work as a pinnacle of human achievement, yes.
Kelandon: This may be the most important scenario ever designed.
Kelandon: And Eph can't know about it. 
Niemand: Planning email sent.
Ephesos: Die in a fire.
Ephesos: Separate fires, all of you.
Lazarus: Eph, I clicked the "Forward button"
Niemand: I was going to say, that would be a mighty big fire.
Lazarus: And when I type the letter 'E' your name appears from my address book. It would be a simple thing to send it to you
Lazarus: But I will not. You are not yet worthy
Lazarus: Oh, reforming the 24 hour contest judging was discussed
Ephesos: Ah, so you don't sweep again?
Lazarus: But that didn't go anywhere. I was afk when it happened, and I suppose my input was sort of needed.
Kelandon: Making the reviews less judgmental and more fun.
Niemand: We're hoping to make it more of a spectator activity.
Lazarus: Yeah, new rule. I have to whack myself over the head a few times before I start designing.
Kelandon: In fact, that's just a general rule whenever Laz sits down at the computer.
Niemand: "Man, this scenario, like the last one, seems like the designed was concussed."
Niemand: *designer
Lazarus: Its only fair. If I didn't take these precautions, people would die of euphoria somewhere around the climax
Kelandon: That's what she said.
Lazarus: I try to stay lucid though. It's a fine line.
Niemand: Now do you use a brick, a heavy book, or something else for the bludgeoning?
Lazarus: Indeed. So yes, ES suggested somehow including "Let's Play"s in the judging
Lazarus: Which I'm unfamiliar with, but could be fun. At least for someone to do one, I don't suppose we can expect everyone to write one for every scenario
Ephesos: Including what?
Lazarus: Niemand: Something else-- it's big and dense, and that's all I'm going to say
Lazarus: Eph: He linked to a forum that has these. Basically its a chronicle of your playthrough, with pictures and such
Lazarus: I guess you write it in a fun tone, and you post as you go? People participate? I have no idea
Niemand: The link was: http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/forumdisplay.php?f=15
Niemand: It seems to be kind of running commentary.
Niemand: tyranicus86 has joined this chat.
Others write posts to discuss, and sometimes recommend how the play through should be carried out.
Back
tyranicus86: Lazarus: It might be fun to have one person write one for each entry or something. Dunno
Lazarus: Offer an outsider a glimpse at what's going on.
Lazarus: And the judging itself would no longer be numerical, but replaced by.... I don't know, what was the alternative?
Kelandon: Not having winners.
Niemand: That sounds good. We would swamp the judges and the baords if we tried to have each judge do that for each.
Kelandon: And therefore not having losers.
Kelandon: Just having general commentary and feedback.
Lazarus: I mean there should be some resolution to the contest. Not winners necessarily, but some sort of reviewing and critiquing process I'd think?
Kelandon: Yes, that.
Kelandon: We too much in the past have pretended that a scenario is permanently finished when it is released initially to the public.
Lazarus: I don't know, perhaps some list of awards to be handed out?
Lazarus: Like not prizes, or "Best Scenario" but maybe "Best Town"
Lazarus: Or "Best Fight scene" or something.
Kelandon: Sure, that might be fun.
Niemand: I like the idea of category based awards.
Lazarus: Anyway, I want people to design. Then I want people to talk about designing. Then I want people to look back on it with fond memories and do it again.
Lazarus: That is all. How that happens is up to the community.
Kelandon: I'll take part in the contest if it's (ideally somewhat whimsical) category awards.
Niemand: 'Best fight scene' sounds good, can we think of others along similar lines?
Lazarus: We could take nominees for these awards, then have an open poll for them
Ephesos: "Most Clearly Influenced By Sleep-Deprivation"
Kelandon: Yes!
Lazarus: "Best one-liner"
Lazarus: "Character you most wanted to punch"
Niemand: Most contrived plot? (Although we don't want to encourage them to be too ridiculous, so maybe not this one.)
Lazarus: We could announce the categories after the fact
Lazarus: So nobody is driving towards the sillier ones. I don't want to encourage Duck or one of those guys to be even more ridiculous.
Kelandon: Yeah, categories after the fact is probably best.
Niemand: That would require just one person, or a group of dedicated non-participants knowing them. Not impossible, I just wanted to make note.
Lazarus: Of course if you announce it after, then you kind of wind up tailoring the categories to the scenarios
Lazarus: Or like Niemand said, have someone who knows the categories beforehand
Ephesos: True. But is that a bad thing?
Lazarus: But isn't involved.
Lazarus: Well not necessarily. But when you wind up with a topic like "Best talking tree" to fit one of the entries, it kind of makes the whole thing transparent. 
Kelandon: Whatever. Transparent isn't a problem.
Ephesos: Agreed.
Ephesos: Obviously we should go for something better than "Best Talking Tree".
Niemand: It could be a funny way to wrap things up to give an amusing award to each entry, assuming there aren't too many.
Kelandon: Yes, that.
Ephesos: ...wait. Hold on a sec.
Ephesos: WHY THE HELL DOES SLARTY HAVE ANY *&
Ephesos: ...damn, rest got lost.
Ephesos: WHY THE HELL DOES SLARTY HAVE ANY SWAY OVER THE BLADES COMMUNITY? COULD SOMEONE REFRESH MY MEMORY?
Niemand: Because he came over here, with great fanfare, and gave the impression that he knows everything about everything.
Kelandon: Does he actually have any sway?
Kelandon: I mean, I haven't paid much attention to where ideas have come from.
Lazarus: He provoked this chat. Should we thank him or curse him?
Kelandon: Yeah, Eph had nothing to do with it.
Ephesos: Curse him.
Kelandon: Clearly we should thank Slarty.
Lazarus: Well ES posted a topic that was a response to Slarty's badgering, which caused Eph to invite a chat.
Lazarus: In which I proposed many a great idea. Who gets credit? 
Kelandon: Laz: Everybody involved except Eph, of course!
Lazarus: Yeah, everyone but the guy who doesn't even know about THE blades scenario of the century
Kelandon: Indeed.
Lazarus: I'm going to bump the 24 hour contest topic at SV. For now I'll keep the conversation there, to avoid confusion, and post at SW when we have something more concrete
Lazarus: I'm going to be vague about potential changes, please post your specific ideas on what you think should happen. This is pretty different from any past contests, so we should probably make sure we have a detailed plan.
Kelandon: Sounds good.
2:33 AM